“Yes, Your Majesty,” replied that man. He searched all over Toraṇavatthu, but he couldn’t see a suitable ascetic or brahmin for the king to pay homage to.
Addasā kho so puriso khemaṃ bhikkhuniṃ toraṇavatthusmiṃ vāsaṃ upagataṃ.
“In the same way, great king, any form by which a Realized One might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.
A Realized One is freed from reckoning in terms of form. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom,
seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.
like the ocean.
‘Hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti.
To say that after death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist: none of these apply.
‘Hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti.
‘Hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti.
consciousness by which a Realized One might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future.
A Realized One is freed from reckoning in terms of consciousness. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom,
seyyathāpi mahāsamuddo.
like the ocean.
‘Hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upeti, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipi na upetī”ti.
To say that after death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist: none of these apply.”
Then King Pasenadi approved and agreed with what the nun Khemā said. Then he got up from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled her, keeping her on his right, before leaving.
Then on a later occasion King Pasenadi of Kosala went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. He asked the Buddha exactly the same questions he had asked the nun Khemā, and received the same answers. Then he said:
“kiṃ nu kho, bhante, hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā”ti?
“Abyākataṃ kho etaṃ, mahārāja, mayā:
‘hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’”ti.
“Kiṃ pana, bhante, na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā”ti?
“Etampi kho, mahārāja, abyākataṃ mayā:
‘na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’”ti.
“Kiṃ nu kho, bhante, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā”ti?
“Abyākataṃ kho etaṃ, mahārāja, mayā:
‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’”ti.
“Kiṃ pana, bhante, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā”ti?
Then King Pasenadi approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. Then he got up from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled him, keeping him on his right, before leaving.
end of section [44.1 - SN 44.1 Khemā: With Khemā]❧
“Reverend Anurādha, when a Realized One is describing a Realized One—a supreme person, highest of people, who has reached the highest point—they describe them in these four ways:
‘hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vā, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vā, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vā, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vā”ti?
After death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist.”
“Reverends, when a Realized One is describing a Realized One—a supreme person, highest of people, who has reached the highest point—they describe them other than these four ways:
‘hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vā, ‘na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vā, ‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vā, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇāti vā”ti.
After death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist.”
Evaṃ vutte, te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā āyasmantaṃ anurādhaṃ etadavocuṃ:
“sace kho maṃ te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā uttariṃ puccheyyuṃ,
“If those wanderers were to inquire further,
kathaṃ byākaramāno nu khvāhaṃ tesaṃ aññatitthiyānaṃ paribbājakānaṃ vuttavādī ceva bhagavato assaṃ, na ca bhagavantaṃ abhūtena abbhācikkheyyaṃ, dhammassa cānudhammaṃ byākareyyaṃ, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānuvādo gārayhaṃ ṭhānaṃ āgaccheyyā”ti?
how should I answer them so as to repeat what the Buddha has said, and not misrepresent him with an untruth? How should I explain in line with his teaching, so that there would be no legitimate grounds for rebuke and criticism?”
“So, Anurādha, you should truly see any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’
consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all consciousness—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’
They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
Taṃ kiṃ maññasi, anurādha,
What do you think, Anurādha?
rūpaṃ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?
Do you regard the Realized One as form?”
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“No, sir.”
“Vedanaṃ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?
“Do you regard the Realized One as feeling …
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“Saññaṃ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?
perception …
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“Saṅkhāre tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?
co-doings …
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“Viññāṇaṃ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?
consciousness?”
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“No, sir.”
“Taṃ kiṃ maññasi, anurādha,
“What do you think, Anurādha?
rūpasmiṃ tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?
Do you regard the Realized One as in form?”
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“No, sir.”
“Aññatra rūpā tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?
“Or do you regard the Realized One as distinct from form?”
Do you regard the Realized One as possessing form, feeling, perception, co-doings, and consciousness?”
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“No, sir.”
“Taṃ kiṃ maññasi, anurādha,
“What do you think, Anurādha?
ayaṃ so arūpī avedano asaññī asaṅkhāro aviññāṇo tathāgatoti samanupassasī”ti?
Do you regard the Realized One as one who is without form, feeling, perception, co-doings, and consciousness?”
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“No, sir.”
“Ettha ca te, anurādha, diṭṭheva dhamme saccato thetato tathāgate anupalabbhiyamāne kallaṃ nu te taṃ veyyākaraṇaṃ—
“In that case, Anurādha, since you don’t acknowledge the Realized One as a genuine fact in the present life, is it appropriate to declare:
yo so, āvuso, tathāgato uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto, taṃ tathāgato aññatra imehi catūhi ṭhānehi paññāpayamāno paññāpeti:
‘Reverends, when a Realized One is describing a Realized One—a supreme person, highest of people, who has reached the highest point—they describe them other than these four ways:
‘hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vā … pe …
After death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist’?”
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vā”ti?
“No hetaṃ, bhante”.
“No, sir.”
“Sādhu sādhu, anurādha.
“Good, good, Anurādha!
Pubbe cāhaṃ, anurādha, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi dukkhassa ca nirodhan”ti.
In the past, as today, what I describe is suffering and the cessation of suffering.”
end of section [44.2 - SN 44.2 Anurādha: With Anurādha]❧
SN 44.3 Paṭhamasāriputtakoṭṭhika: With Sāriputta and Koṭṭhita (1st)
3. Paṭhamasāriputtakoṭṭhikasutta
3. With Sāriputta and Koṭṭhita (1st)
Ekaṃ samayaṃ āyasmā ca sāriputto, āyasmā ca mahākoṭṭhiko bārāṇasiyaṃ viharanti isipatane migadāye.
At one time Venerable Sāriputta and Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were staying near Benares, in the deer park at Isipatana.
“Reverend, not truly knowing and seeing form, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation, one thinks ‘a Realized One exists after death’ or
‘na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa hoti;
‘a Realized One doesn’t exist after death’ or
‘hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa hoti;
‘a Realized One both exists and doesn’t exist after death’ or
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa hoti.
‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death.’
consciousness, and don’t truly see the cessation of consciousness, you think ‘a Realized One exists after death’ …
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa hoti.
‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death.’
Na rūpārāmassa kho, āvuso, na rūparatassa na rūpasammuditassa, rūpanirodhaṃ jānato passato yathābhūtaṃ, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti … pe …
If you don’t like, love, and enjoy form …
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti.
Na vedanārāmassa kho, āvuso … pe …
feeling …
na saññārāmassa kho, āvuso … pe …
perception …
na saṅkhārārāmassa kho, āvuso … pe …
co-doings …
na viññāṇārāmassa kho, āvuso, na viññāṇaratassa na viññāṇasammuditassa, viññāṇanirodhaṃ jānato passato yathābhūtaṃ, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti … pe …
consciousness, and you truly see the cessation of consciousness, you don’t think ‘a Realized One exists after death’ …
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti.
‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death.’
If you like, love, and enjoy existence, and don’t truly see the cessation of continued existence, you think ‘a Realized One exists after death’ …
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa hoti.
‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death.’
Na bhavārāmassa kho, āvuso, na bhavaratassa na bhavasammuditassa, bhavanirodhaṃ jānato passato yathābhūtaṃ, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti … pe …
If you don’t like, love, and enjoy existence, and you truly see the cessation of continued existence, you don’t think ‘a Realized One exists after death’ …
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti.
‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death.’
If you like, love, and enjoy grasping, and don’t truly see the cessation of grasping, you think ‘a Realized One exists after death’ …
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa hoti.
‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death.’
Na upādānārāmassa kho, āvuso, na upādānaratassa na upādānasammuditassa, upādānanirodhaṃ jānato passato yathābhūtaṃ, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti … pe …
If you don’t like, love, and enjoy grasping, and you truly see the cessation of grasping, you don’t think ‘a Realized One exists after death’ …
‘neva, hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti.
‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death.’
If you like, love, and enjoy craving, and don’t truly see the cessation of craving, you think ‘a Realized One exists after death’ …
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa hoti.
‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death.’
Na taṇhārāmassa kho, āvuso, na taṇhāratassa na taṇhāsammuditassa, taṇhānirodhaṃ jānato passato yathābhūtaṃ, ‘hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti … pe …
If you don’t like, love, and enjoy craving, and you truly see the cessation of craving, you don’t think ‘a Realized One exists after death’ …
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’tipissa na hoti.
‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death.’
That’s why they answer these questions when asked.
sassato lokoti vā … pe …
neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇāti vā.
Tathāgato ca kho, vaccha, arahaṃ sammāsambuddho cakkhuṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati … pe …
The Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha regards the eye like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ He regards the ear … nose …
jivhaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati … pe …
tongue … body …
manaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati.
mind like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’
Tasmā tathāgatassa evaṃ puṭṭhassa na evaṃ veyyākaraṇaṃ hoti—
That’s why he doesn’t answer these questions when asked.”
sassato lokotipi … pe …
neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇātipī”ti.
When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. He asked the Buddha the same questions, and received the same answers. Then he said:
“kiṃ nu kho, bho gotama, sassato loko”ti?
“Abyākataṃ kho etaṃ, vaccha, mayā: ‘sassato loko’ti … pe ….
“Kiṃ pana, bho gotama, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā”ti?
“Etampi kho, vaccha, abyākataṃ mayā:
‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’”ti.
“Acchariyaṃ, bho gotama, abbhutaṃ, bho gotama.
“It’s incredible, Master Gotama, it’s amazing!
Yatra hi nāma satthu ca sāvakassa ca atthena attho byañjanena byañjanaṃ saṃsandissati samessati na virodhayissati, yadidaṃ aggapadasmiṃ.
How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without contradiction when it comes to the chief matter!
When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. He asked Mahāmoggallāna the same questions, and received the same answers. Then he said:
“kiṃ nu kho, bho moggallāna, sassato loko”ti?
“Abyākataṃ kho etaṃ, vaccha, bhagavatā: ‘sassato loko’ti … pe ….
“Kiṃ pana, bho moggallāna, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’”ti?
“Master Gotama, a few days ago several ascetics, brahmins, and wanderers who follow various other paths were sitting together in the debating hall, and this discussion came up among them:
‘ayaṃ kho pūraṇo kassapo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.
‘This Pūraṇa Kassapa leads an order and a community, and teaches a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, regarded as holy by many people.
Sopi sāvakaṃ abbhatītaṃ kālaṅkataṃ upapattīsu byākaroti:
When a disciple passes away, he declares that
“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.
And as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares that
“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.
Ayampi kho makkhali gosālo … pe …
This Makkhali Gosāla …
ayampi kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto … pe …
Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta …
ayampi kho sañcayo belaṭṭhaputto … pe …
Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta …
ayampi kho pakudho kaccāno … pe …
Pakudha Kaccāyana …
ayampi kho ajito kesakambalo saṃghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.
Ajita Kesakambala leads an order and a community, and teaches a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, regarded as holy by many people.
Sopi sāvakaṃ abbhatītaṃ kālaṅkataṃ upapattīsu byākaroti:
When a disciple passes away, he declares that
“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.
And as for a disciple who is a supreme person, highest of people, having reached the highest point, when they pass away he also declares that
“asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno”’ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.
Ayampi kho samaṇo gotamo saṃghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa.
This ascetic Gotama leads an order and a community, and teaches a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, regarded as holy by many people.
Sopi sāvakaṃ abbhatītaṃ kālaṅkataṃ upapattīsu byākaroti:
When a disciple passes away, he declares that
‘asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno’ti.
this one is reborn here, while that one is reborn there.
“But when someone who is attached has laid down this body and has not been reborn in one of the realms, what does Master Gotama say is their fuel then?”
“Ānanda, when Vacchagotta asked me whether the self exists absolutely, if I had answered that ‘the self exists absolutely’ I would have been siding with the ascetics and brahmins who are eternalists.
When Vacchagotta asked me whether the self does not exist absolutely, if I had answered that ‘the self does not exist absolutely’ I would have been siding with the ascetics and brahmins who are annihilationists.
Ahañcānanda, vacchagottassa paribbājakassa ‘atthattā’ti puṭṭho samāno ‘atthattā’ti byākareyyaṃ, api nu me taṃ, ānanda, anulomaṃ abhavissa ñāṇassa uppādāya:
When Vacchagotta asked me whether the self exists absolutely, if I had answered that ‘the self exists absolutely’ would that have helped give rise to the knowledge that
“When Vacchagotta asked me whether the self does not exist absolutely, if I had answered that ‘the self does not exist absolutely’, Vacchagotta—who is already confused—would have got even more confused, thinking:
‘ahuvā me nūna pubbe attā, so etarahi natthī’”ti.
‘It seems that the self that I once had no longer exists.’”
‘Kiṃ nu kho, bho kaccāna, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti, iti puṭṭho samāno:
‘abyākataṃ kho etaṃ, vaccha, bhagavatā—
hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vadesi.
‘Kiṃ pana, bho kaccāna, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti, iti puṭṭho samāno:
‘etampi kho, vaccha, abyākataṃ bhagavatā—
neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṃ maraṇā’ti vadesi.
Ko nu kho, bho kaccāna, hetu, ko paccayo, yenetaṃ abyākataṃ samaṇena gotamenā”ti?
What’s the cause, what’s the reason why this has not been declared by the Buddha?”
“Yo ca, vaccha, hetu, yo ca paccayo paññāpanāya rūpīti vā arūpīti vā saññīti vā asaññīti vā nevasaññīnāsaññīti vā, so ca hetu, so ca paccayo sabbena sabbaṃ sabbathā sabbaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjheyya.
“In order to describe him as ‘possessing form’ or ‘formless’ or ‘percipient’ or ‘non-percipient’ or ‘neither percipient nor non-percipient’, there must be some cause or reason for doing so. But if that cause and reason were to totally and utterly cease without anything left over,
“Well, you’ve learned a lot already; and who can say what lies ahead!”
Abyākatasaṃyuttaṃ samattaṃ.
The Linked Discourses on undeclared questions are complete.
Saḷāyatanavaggasaṃyuttapāḷi niṭṭhitā.
The Book of the Aggregates is finished.
end of section [44..1.. - SN 44 vagga 1 Abyākata: The Undeclared Points]❧
§ – Mahā-vaggo: great chapter (5 of 5)
SN-q 45 - SN 45 Magga Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on the Path SN-q 46 - SN 46 Bojjhaṅga Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on the Factors of Enlightenment SN-q 47 - SN 47 Satipaṭṭhāna Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on the Foundations of Mindfulness SN-q 48 - SN 48 Indriya Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on the Faculties SN-q 49 - SN 49 Sammappadhāna Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on the Right Strivings SN-q 50 - SN 50 Bala Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on the Powers SN-q 51 - SN 51 Iddhipāda Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on the Bases for Spiritual Power SN-q 52 - SN 52 Anuruddha Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses with Anuruddha SN-q 53 - SN 53 Jhāna Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on the Jhānas SN-q 54 - SN 54 Ānāpāna Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on Breathing SN-q 55 - SN 55 Sotāpatti Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on Stream-Entry SN-q 56 - SN 56 Sacca Saṃyutta: Connected Discourses on the Truths