4👑☸ Cattāri Ariya-saccaṃ 四聖諦

4👑☸ → ☂️🌄 → hearing in jhāna👂🌄    🔗📝 🔝


hearing in jhāna👂🌄 , samādhi

✅ You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas, including 'imperturbable' version of 4th jhāna (j4🌕 āneñja⚡). First three jhāna are 'perturbable' MN 66.
✅ You can not hear sounds in imperturbable formless (a-rūpa) attainments.
   * Unqualified 'āneñja ' (imperturbable) is usually referring to these formless attainment's, and not 4th jhāna.
   * These formless states are the 'santi vihara' peaceful meditations referred to in DN 16 where Buddha and his teacher can not hear sounds.
⛔ Tv Ab Kv 18.8 claims that one can not hear sounds in the four jhānas. First of all, this text is relatively new and not everyone agrees it's canonical. Second, they use fallacious and circular reasoning.

 hearing in jhāna👂🌄 1 – You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas. Which samādhis are silent?
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 2 – hearing in the four jhānas explicit in these suttas
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 3 - These are the only suttas showing no hearing being possible
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 4 – Analysis of relevant sutta references (alphabetical)
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 5 – Hearing and thinking while in Jhāna strongly implied
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 6 – Can you hear sound in imperturbable samādhi?
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 7 – AN 10.72 sound can be a thorn in all four jhānas
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 8 – Jhāna vs. VRJ
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 9 – Silence Isn’t Mandatory
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 10 – Misc.

detailed TOC

hearing in jhāna👂🌄 1 – You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas. Which samādhis are silent?
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 2 – hearing in the four jhānas explicit in these suttas
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 3 - These are the only suttas showing no hearing being possible
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 4 – Analysis of relevant sutta references (alphabetical)
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 5 – Hearing and thinking while in Jhāna strongly implied
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 6 – Can you hear sound in imperturbable samādhi?
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 7 – AN 10.72 sound can be a thorn in all four jhānas
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 8 – Jhāna vs. VRJ
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 9 – Silence Isn’t Mandatory
hearing in jhāna👂🌄 10 – Misc.

1 – You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas. Which samādhis are silent?

You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas. Which samādhis are silent?
Answer: MN 43 and AN 9.37 make it absolutely clear, by not listing 4 jhanas, it’s only in the formless attainments where one is percipient and conscious and awake, but can not hear sounds, feel touch of body, etc. with 5 sense doors.

There are two types of imperturbable (anenja) samadhi

1. the purified and luminous 4th jhana that can easily access the 6 higher knowledges, as described in MN 125 war elephant simile, AN 5.113 and AN 5.139, AN 6.56 with Sona.
2. formless attainments (as mentioned above, MN 43 and AN 9.37)
so when KN Ud 3.3 states that 500 monks and buddha in imperturbable samadhi can’t hear, we know it must be talking about formless states, not imperturbable 4th jhana.
when DN 16 mentions Buddh, while awake, percipient, conscious, not hearing in thunderstorm, and Alara not hearing 500 carts, their unamed samadhi must therefore be the imperturbable formless attainments, not the 4th jhana.
the imperturbable samadhi of Moggallana in the Vinaya passage must be the formless states, not 4th jhana for the same reason.
AN 10.72 deliberately omitting the 4 formless attainments, and listing 4 jhanas (plural), means sound acts as thorns in all jhanas, but not in the formless samadhi.
In DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’, we know that unspecified samadhi must therefore be 4 jhanas, or animitta samadhi. In several suttas, the buddha has stated whenever he’s not giving a dhamma talk, his mind is in suññata or samadhi. Suññata includes all 9 attainments and also animitta samadhi. Since he’s walking around, he’s not in a formless samadhi, and so most likely he’s in imperturbable 4th jhana by default.

'Santa Vihara', Peaceful dwellings, are formless attainments, not 4 jhānas

Besides the imperturbable formless samādhi where one can not hear sounds, the another term that is used is 'Santa Vihara', Peaceful dwellings.
In DN 16 when Buddha and his Teacher can not hear sounds, they are in Santa Vihara.
As MN 8 very clearly delineates, the four jhānas are 'pleasant dwellings', as opposed to the 4 formless attainments which are 'peaceful dwellings.'

Conclusion: you can hear sounds in the 4 jhanas, loud sounds are thorns

When you consider all the sutta passages in this article, the evidence is overwhelming and incontrovertible. There is no controversy, and people should do their homework and clear it up for themselves. It’s not that hard. All the evidence is laid out for you here, you just need to commit a couple of hours to careful study.

2 – hearing in the four jhānas explicit in these suttas

Chapter 4 will look at excerpts from every sutta that has anything to do with hearing in samādhi, this chapter just briefly highlights a few of the most clear and explicit suttas showing hearing happening in the four jhānas.

MN 125 satipaṭṭhāna explicitly equated with first jhāna! If you can hear in 4sp🐘 , you can also hear in jhāna
This sutta pretty much closes the case already. If you can hear in first jhāna, and we know someone with imperturbale version of fourth jhāna j4🌕 āneñja⚡ can walk around interactive with people and read their thoughts by exercising supernormal power, obviously 4th jhāna you must be able to hear sounds.
So if first jhāna can hear sounds, fourth jhāna can hear sounds, obviously 2nd and 3rd jhāna can also hear sounds.

MN 125 simile of war elephant in imperturbable 4th jhana withstanding onslaught from 5 sense doors
It’s clear what the war elephant is doing in the first 3 jhānas, involves listening, understanding, thinking with vitakka and vicāra.

DN 21 Buddha is explicitly in jhāna and hears a musician singing verse

DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’ by the loud sounds.

KN Ud 3.3 Buddha and 500 monks in imperturbable samadhi can’t hear Ānanda talking to them
Over the four hours of the night, Ānanda several times approaches the Buddha to talk to him, and each time the Buddha doesn’t respond.
The implication is Ānanda doesn’t expect the Buddha to be in imperturbable samādhi (formless attainments) by default, and that the Buddha normally would be in four jhānas samādhi where he can hear Ānanda talking to thim.

AN 10.72 sound is a thorn to all four jhānas, not just first jhāna
KN Snp‍ 5.14 Brahmin Udaya talks to the Buddha sitting in jhāna, Buddha replies.

3 - These are the only suttas showing no hearing being possible

These samādhis are not 4 jhānas!

DN 16 Āḷāra Kālāma doesn’t hear 500 carts pass by while in santa vihara (peaceful dwelling) awake (jagara), percipient (saññi)
DN 16 Buddha can’t hear in thunderstorm while in santa vihara (peaceful dwelling/meditation) awake (jagara), percipient (saññi)
KN Ud 3.3 Buddha and 500 monks in imperturbable samadhi can’t hear Ānanda talking to them
AN 9.37 mind divorced from 5 body faculties are 3 formless attainments, NOT 4 jhanas!
MN 43 mind divorced from 5 body faculties can know what? (3 formless attainments, not 4 jhanas!)
Vinaya Parjika 4.1 Moggallana hears sound in imperturbable samadhi
(Buddha explains Moggallāna was doing impure version of formless attainment when he heard sounds)

4 – Analysis of relevant sutta references (alphabetical)

We’ll examine briefly some passages from these suttas (alphabetical order):

AN 5.26 First jhāna possible while hearing aand thinking during live dhamma talk
AN 5.113 sammā-samādhi-suttaṃ (right concentration)
AN 5.139 explicit in withstanding 5 senses while in samādhi
AN 5.151 listen to Dhamma with ekagga-citta
AN 5.209 chanting suttas is samādhi
AN 6.55 imperturbable (āneñja) outside of sitting jhāna
AN 6.56 Phagguna attained arahantship with hearing, V&V
AN 9.36 one is percipient of rūpa (5 senses of body) in four jhānas, but not in formless attainments
AN 9.37 mind divorced from 5 body faculties are 3 formless attainments, NOT 4 jhanas!
AN 10.72 sound is a thorn to all four jhānas, not just first jhāna
DN 16 Āḷāra Kālāma doesn’t hear 500 carts pass by while in santa vihara (peaceful dwelling) awake (jagara), percipient (saññi)
DN 16 Buddha can’t hear in thunderstorm while in santa vihara (peaceful dwelling/meditation) awake (jagara), percipient (saññi)
DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’
KN Ud 3.3 Buddha and 500 monks in imperturbable samadhi can’t hear Ānanda talking to them
MN 43 mind divorced from 5 body faculties can know what? (3 formless attainments, not 4 jhanas!)
MN 125 satipaṭṭhāna explicitly equated with first jhāna! If you can hear in 4sp, you can also hear in jhāna
MN 125 simile of war elephant in imperturbable 4th jhana withstanding onslaught from 5 sense doors
MN 137 upekkha of 4th jhāna is connected to 5 senses, upekkha of formless attainments is not
SN 46.38 hearing & thinking the dhamma while in jhāna samādhi
Vinaya Mv.II.3.4 “We listen with an ek’agga mind, an unscattered...
Vinaya Parjika 4.1 Moggallana hears sound in imperturbable samadhi
Vimt. Arahant Upatissa, On sound and speech in jhāna

Hearing and thinking while in Jhāna strongly implied

MN 70 hearing, memorizing, thinking dhamma for arahantship
AN 9.41 Buddha practicing impure first jhāna

AN 5.26 First jhāna possible while hearing and thinking during live dhamma talk

AN 5.26

idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno
 Here, monks, (for a) monk,
satthā dhammaṃ deseti
 (a) teacher (of) dhamma teaches (him),
aññataro vā garuṭṭhāniyo sabrahmacārī.
 {or a} certain fellow monk [teaches him],
yathā yathā, bhikkhave, tassa bhikkhuno
 in whatever way , *********, (for the) monk (that)
satthā dhammaṃ deseti
 (a) teacher (of) dhamma teaches (him),
aññataro vā garuṭṭhāniyo sabrahmacārī.
 {or a} certain fellow monk [teaches him],

(refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship)

tathā tathā so tasmiṃ
 like-that, accordingly, he ******
dhamme attha-paṭisaṃvedī ca hoti
 {feels [inspiration]} in Dhamma meaning and
dhamma-paṭisaṃvedī ca.
 {feels [inspiration]} in Dhamma,
tassa attha-paṭisaṃvedino dhamma-paṭisaṃvedino
 as he {feels [inspiration] in} Dhamma-meaning (and) Dhamma,
pāmojjaṃ jāyati.
 joy arises.
pamuditassa pīti jāyati.
 (When he is) joyful, rapture arises.
pīti-manassa kāyo passambhati.
 (with) rapturous-mind, (the) body (becomes) tranquil.
passaddha-kāyo sukhaṃ vedeti.
 (with) tranquil-body, pleasure (he) feels.
sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
 (For one feeling) pleasure, (the) mind (becomes) concentrated.
idaṃ, bhikkhave, paṭhamaṃ vimutt-āyatanaṃ
 This, monks, (is the) first liberation-basis,
yattha bhikkhuno appamattassa
 by means of which, if a monk {dwells} assiduous,
ātāpino pahitattassa viharato
 ardent, resolute, ********,
a-vimuttaṃ vā cittaṃ vimuccati,
 (his) un-liberated ** mind (is) liberated,
a-parik-khīṇā vā āsavā parik-khayaṃ gacchanti,
 un-destroyed ** asinine-inclinations, utterly-destroyed (they) become.
An-anuppattaṃ vā an-uttaraṃ yogak-khemaṃ
 (the) un-reached un-surpassed security-from-the-yoke
Anu-pāpuṇāti.
 (he) reaches.”

AN 5.113 sammā-samādhi-suttaṃ (right concentration)

AN 5.113
AN 5.113 sammā-samādhi-suttaṃ
 AN 5.113 right concentration discourse
♦ 113. “pañcahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato bhikkhu abhabbo sammāsamādhiṃ upasampajja viharituṃ. katamehi pañcahi? idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu akkhamo hoti rūpānaṃ, akkhamo saddānaṃ, akkhamo gandhānaṃ, akkhamo rasānaṃ, akkhamo phoṭṭhabbānaṃ. imehi kho, bhikkhave, pañcahi dhammehi samannāgato bhikkhu abhabbo sammāsamādhiṃ upasampajja viharituṃ.
 (bodhi trans.) “Bhikkhus, possessing five qualities, a bhikkhu is incapable of entering and dwelling in right concentration. What five? Here, a bhikkhu cannot patiently endure forms, sounds, odors, tastes, and tactile objects. Possessing these five qualities, a bhikkhu is incapable of entering and dwelling in right concentration.
... (and the opposite case of above is stated for the remainder of the sutta)...

(Thanissaro translates ak-khamo as "resilient" or "able to withstand the impact of")

Recall STED (standard definition) of right concentration is the 4 jhānas. In the four arupa samadhis, the mind is divorced from the 5 sense faculties. In the 4 jhānas, which are still joined with the 5 sense faculties, as that’s the nature of rūpa, one is still able to hear sounds, feel mosquito bites, smell fresh cow dung, etc.



AN 5.139 explicit in withstanding 5 senses while in samādhi

(based on thanissaro trans., the phrase for mind concentrated is "cittaṃ samādahituṃ")
AN 5.139
“Endowed with five qualities, monks, a king’s elephant is not worthy of a king, is not a king’s asset, does not count as a very limb of his king. Which five? There is the case where a king’s elephant is not resilient to sights, not resilient to sounds, not resilient to aromas, not resilient to flavors, not resilient to tactile sensations.
...
“And how is a king’s elephant not resilient to sounds? There is the case where a king’s elephant, having gone into battle, hears the sound of elephants, the sound of cavalry, the sound of chariots, the sound of foot soldiers, the resounding din of drums, cymbals, conchs, & tom-toms, and so he falters, faints, doesn’t steel himself, can’t engage in the battle. This is how a king’s elephant is not resilient to sounds.

“And how is a king’s elephant not resilient to aromas? There is the case where a king’s elephant, having gone into battle, smells the stench of the urine & feces of those pedigreed royal elephants who are at home in the battlefield, and so he falters, faints, doesn’t steel himself, can’t engage in the battle. This is how a king’s elephant is not resilient to aromas.
...
“And how is a king’s elephant not resilient to tactile sensations? There is the case where a king’s elephant, having gone into battle, is pierced by a flight of arrows, two flights, three flights, four flights, five flights of arrows, and so he falters, faints, doesn’t steel himself, can’t engage in the battle. This is how a king’s elephant is not resilient to tactile sensations.
...
“In the same way, a monk endowed with five qualities is not deserving of gifts, deserving of hospitality, deserving of offerings, deserving of respect, nor is he an unexcelled field of merit for the world. Which five? There is the case where a monk is not resilient to sights, not resilient to sounds, not resilient to aromas, not resilient to flavors, not resilient to tactile sensations.
...
“And how is a monk not resilient to sounds? There is the case where a monk, on hearing a sound with the ear, feels passion for a sound that incites passion and cannot concentrate his mind. This is how a monk is not resilient to sounds.

“And how is a monk not resilient to aromas? There is the case where a monk, on smelling an aroma with the nose, feels passion for an aroma that incites passion and cannot concentrate his mind. This is how a monk is not resilient to aromas.
...

“And how is a monk not resilient to tactile sensations? There is the case where a monk, on touching a tactile sensation with the body, feels passion for a tactile sensation that incites passion and cannot concentrate his mind. This is how a monk is not resilient to tactile sensations.
...
(... the rest of sutta states the positive opposite 5 cases each for elephant and monk ... )

“Endowed with these five qualities, a monk is deserving of gifts, deserving of hospitality, deserving of offerings, deserving of respect, an unexcelled field of merit for the world.”

While the scenario above is an active samādhi that occurs in all postures, sitting meditation is one of those postures. It’s possible to hear sounds while in first jhāna, listening to a dhamma teaching for example, and reflecting on the meaning of that dhamma with V&V (vitakka and vicara), as we’ll see in another sutta.


AN 5.151 listen to Dhamma with ekagga-citta

(1. doesn’t hold talk in contempt )
(2. doesn’t hold speaker in contempt )
(3. doesn’t hold oneself in contempt )
(4. Listens without scattered/vikkhitta-citto mind )
(5. Mind is ek-agga, with-appropriate attention. )

a-vikkhitta-citto dhammaṃ suṇāti,
 “One listens to the Dhamma with an un-scattered mind,
ek’-agga-citto
 (with) single-preoccupation – (in) – mind
yoniso ca manasi karoti.
 “One attends appropriately.”
imehi kho, bhikkhave, pañcahi dhammehi samannāgato
 “Endowed with these five qualities
suṇanto saddhammaṃ
 when listening to the True Dhamma,
bhabbo niyāmaṃ okkamituṃ kusalesu dhammesu sammattan”ti. paṭhamaṃ.
 one is capable of alighting on the orderliness, on the rightness of skillful qualities.”

Ekaggata and samādhi often used synonymously

Here are a few excerpts from Thanissaro’s article on Ekaggata that show hearing sounds and samādhi and jhāna happen simultaneously.

agga is a meeting place

The second cluster of meanings for agga centers on the idea of “meeting place.” A hall where monks gather for the uposatha, for example, is called an uposath’agga. The spot where they gather for their meals is called a bhatt’agga.

Given that the object of concentration is said to be a dwelling (vihāra), and that a person enters and dwells (viharati) in the levels of jhāna, this second cluster of meanings may be the more relevant one here. A mind with a single agga, in this case, would simply be a mind gathered around one object, and need not be reduced to a single point.

B. An even more telling way to determine the meanings of ek’agga and ek’aggatā is, instead of dividing these words into their roots, to look at the ways in which the Canon uses them to describe minds.

1. Two passages, one from the Vinaya and one from a sutta, show what ek’agga means in the everyday context of listening to the Dhamma.

Mv.II.3.4 “We listen with an ek’agga mind, an unscattered...

In Mv.II.3.4, the phrase, “we pay attention,” in the instructions for how to listen to the Pāṭimokkha, is defined as: “We listen with an ek’agga mind, an unscattered mind, an undistracted mind.” Even if ek’agga were translated as “one-pointed” here, the “point” is obviously not so restricted as to make the ears fall silent. Otherwise, we would not be able to hear the Pāṭimokkha at all. And the fact that the mind is ek’agga doesn’t mean that we can’t also hear other sounds aside from the Pāṭimokkha. It’s just that those sounds don’t make the mind lose its focus on a single theme.

AN 5:151 with ek'agga mind one can listen and think

In AN 5.151, the Buddha lists five qualities that enable one, when listening to the true Dhamma, to “alight on assuredness, on the rightness of skillful qualities.” The five qualities are:

“One doesn’t hold the talk in contempt.
“One doesn’t hold the speaker in contempt.
“One doesn’t hold oneself in contempt.
“One listens to the Dhamma with an unscattered mind, an ek’agga mind.
“One attends appropriately.”

Because appropriate attention means to contemplate experiences in terms of the four noble truths (see MN 2), this passage shows that when the mind is ek’agga, it’s not only able to hear. It can also think at the same time. If it couldn’t hear or think, it couldn’t make sense of the Dhamma talk. So again, even if we translate ek’agga as “one-pointed,” the one-pointed mind is not so pointy that it cannot think or hear sounds. This would defeat the purpose of listening to the Dhamma and would get in the way of “alighting on assuredness.”

AN 5.209 chanting suttas is samādhi

AN 5.209
sara-kuttimpi ni-kāma-yamānassa
 (4) intonation-refining (for) one-desiring (that),
samādhissa bhaṅgo hoti,
 (their) undistractable-lucidity breaks-up.

This sutta is talking about the problems with being too musical in how one chants suttas. Item #4 shows that the act of vocalizing, listening to one's own vocalization to adjust intonation, understanding the sutta's meaning as one chants, or even just knowing whether one's reciting is accurate, is samādhi.
The 4 jhānas are samādhi, so one can hear sounds in jhāna.


AN 6.55 imperturbable (āneñja) outside of sitting jhāna

evaṃ sammā vimuttacittassa kho, āvuso, bhikkhuno bhusā cepi cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā cakkhussa āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, nevassa cittaṃ pariyādiyanti; amissīkatamevassa cittaṃ hoti ṭhitaṃ āneñjappattaṃ, vayaṃ cassānupassati.
 "Even if powerful forms cognizable by the eye come into the visual range of a monk whose mind is thus rightly released, his mind is neither overpowered nor even engaged. Being still, having reached imperturbability, he focuses on their passing away.
AN 6.55

♦ “bhusā cepi sotaviññeyyā saddā... ghānaviññeyyā gandhā... jivhāviññeyyā rasā... kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā... manoviññeyyā dhammā manassa āpāthaṃ āgacchanti, nevassa cittaṃ pariyādiyanti; amissīkatamevassa cittaṃ hoti ṭhitaṃ āneñjappattaṃ, vayaṃ cassānupassatī”ti. chaṭṭhaṃ.
 And even if powerful sounds... aromas... flavors... tactile sensations... Even if powerful ideas cognizable by the intellect come into the mental range of a monk whose mind is thus rightly released, his mind is neither overpowered nor even engaged. Being still, having reached imperturbability, he focuses on their passing away.

In this particular passage, Ven. Sona is an arahant describing himself, but the key word imperturbability suggests he’s still in a 4th jhāna that can hear sounds, and not be affected by the sounds .

AN 6.56 Phagguna attained arahantship with hearing, V&V

Jhāna and samādhi are not explicitly stated in AN 6.56 Phagguna-sutta.

But it’s hard to believe one hears a Dhamma talk, or reflects on memorized Dhamma with V&V (vitakka & vicara) without being in at least first jhana to attain non-returner or arahantship.

If you’re saying these 6 scenarios happened without jhana, then you’re in a very awkward position of trying to explain what kind of samadhi looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, but is not jhana.

This sutta is talking about not just Phagguna, but is a general description of 6 ways one can attain non-return or arahantship from listening to (while in first jhana), or thinking and considering Dhamma (B. Sujato’s translation of V&V here).

So which is it? If he’s in first jhana, then V&V would need to be translated as “placing the mind and keeping it connected”, which would be incoherent. If he’s not in first jhana, then where in the suttas does it explain the origination and province of all these duck-like species that aren’t ducks but look and behave exactly like them?

AN 6.56 phagguna, although not mentioning jhana explicitly, is following the same 7sb pattern (where hearing and V&V are involved) in AN 5.26.

Now AN 5.26 also doesn’t explicitly say “jhana”, but when you have piti-samobojjhanga present, passadhi-sambojjhanga present, samadhi-sambojjhanga present, that’s absolutely 4 jhana quality of samadhi. Or else you have yet more mysterious species of duck like creatures that look, act, quack like a duck but are supposedly not actually ducks.

AN 9.36 one is percipient of rūpa (5 senses of body) in four jhānas, but not in formless attainments

AN 9.36
Note that AN 9.36 is the sutta that immediately precedes AN 9.37!
Those suttas are connected.
The sutta is explaining how one does vipassana while one is in the four jhānas and the first three formless attainments.
It also mentions one is percipient of form/rūpa while in the four jhānas,
but one is not percipient of rūpa while in the formless attainments
Percipient of rūpa means the mind is connected to the 5 senses of the physical body.
You can hear sounds in the four jhānas.
Just to make sure you get the point, the next sutta, AN 9.37 uses different terminology equivalent to the body’s rūpa in terms of the 5 bodily sense bases, and only mentions the formless attainments as not being able to sense the body or hear sounds, very conspicuously omitting the four jhānas from that!

AN 9.37 mind divorced from 5 body faculties are 3 formless attainments, NOT 4 jhanas!

AN 9.37

(for example one would not be able to hear sounds, feel mosquito bites in this state)
(1) That very eye will-be-present (with) those forms
 tadeva nāma cakkhuṃ bhavissati te rūpā
[and yet] that-base [one] {will} not experience.
 Tañc-āyatanaṃ no paṭisaṃvedissati.
(2) That very ear will-be-present (with) those sounds,
 tadeva nāma sotaṃ bhavissati te saddā
[and yet] that-base [one] {will} not experience.
 Tañc-āyatanaṃ no paṭisaṃvedissati.
(3) That very nose will-be-present (with) those odors,
 tadeva nāma ghānaṃ bhavissati te gandhā
[and yet] that-base [one] {will} not experience.
 Tañc-āyatanaṃ no paṭisaṃvedissati.
(4) That very tongue will-be-present (with) those tastes,
 sāva nāma jivhā bhavissati te rasā
[and yet] that-base [one] {will} not experience.
 Tañc-āyatanaṃ no paṭisaṃvedissati.
That very body will-be-present (with) those tactile-objects,
 sova nāma kāyo bhavissati te phoṭṭhabbā
[and yet] that-base [one] {will} not experience.
 Tañc-āyatanaṃ no paṭisaṃvedissati.
“
 ti.
(What is one percipient of when divorced from 5 sense faculties?)
with-that said, Venerable Udāyī
 ♦ evaṃ vutte āyasmā udāyī
(to) Venerable Ānanda {said}-this:
 āyasmantaṃ ānandaṃ etadavoca —
"(Is one) percipient-*** ***, friend Ānanda,
 “saññīm-eva nu kho, āvuso ānanda,
(while) that-base (is) not experienced,
 tad-āyatanaṃ no paṭisaṃvedeti
or (is one) not-percipient?"
 udāhu a-saññī”ti?
"[One is] Percipient-*** indeed, *****,
 “saññīm-eva kho, āvuso,
(while) that-base (is) not experienced,
 tad-āyatanaṃ no paṭisaṃvedeti,
not un-percipient."
 no a-saññī”ti.
"What-(is one)-percipient (of), friend,
 ♦ “kiṃ-saññī panāvuso,
(while) that-base (is) not experienced?"
 tad-āyatanaṃ no paṭisaṃvedetī”ti?
Answer is same 3 formless attainments as MN 43, plus na ca sa-saṅkhāra-niggayha-vārita-gato

AN 10.72 sound is a thorn to all four jhānas, not just first jhāna

AN 10.72 see detailed sutta analysis in next section

DN 16 Āḷāra Kālāma doesn’t hear 500 carts pass by while in santa vihara (peaceful dwelling) awake (jagara), percipient (saññi)

DN 16

(sutta passage analyzed in another chapter of article)

DN 16 Buddha can’t hear in thunderstorm while in santa vihara (peaceful dwelling/meditation) awake (jagara), percipient (saññi)

DN 16

(sutta passage analyzed in another chapter of article)

DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’

DN 21 compare with DN 16 where Buddha can’t hear in imperturbable samadhi

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2020/01/dn-21-sound-of-chariot-causes-buddha-to.html

‘akālo kho, mārisa, bhagavantaṃ dassanāya;
 ‘It’s the wrong time to see the Buddha,
paṭisallīno bhagavā’ti.
 as he’s in retreat.’
‘Tena hi, bhagini, yadā bhagavā tamhā samādhimhā vuṭṭhito hoti, atha mama vacanena bhagavantaṃ abhivādehi:
 ‘Well then, sister, please convey my message when the Buddha emerges from that undistractible-lucidity.’
“sakko, bhante, devānamindo sāmacco saparijano bhagavato pāde sirasā vandatī”’ti.
Kacci me sā, bhante, bhaginī bhagavantaṃ abhivādesi?
 I hope that sister bowed to you?
Sarati bhagavā tassā bhaginiyā vacanan”ti?
 Do you remember what she said?”
“Abhivādesi maṃ sā, devānaminda, bhaginī, sarāmahaṃ tassā bhaginiyā vacanaṃ.
 “She did bow, lord of gods, and I remember what she said.
Api cāhaṃ āyasmato nemisaddena tamhā samādhimhā vuṭṭhito”ti.
 I also remember that it was the sound of your chariot wheels that pulled me out of that undistractible-lucidity.”

KN Ud 3.3 Buddha and 500 monks in imperturbable samadhi can’t hear Ānanda talking to them

KN Ud 3.3 if they could hear, buddha would have responded to Ānanda talking to him.

♦ tatiyampi kho āyasmā ānando abhikkantāya rattiyā, nikkhante pacchime yāme, uddhaste aruṇe, nandimukhiyā rattiyā uṭṭhāyāsanā ekaṃsaṃ uttarāsaṅgaṃ karitvā yena bhagavā tenañjaliṃ paṇāmetvā bhagavantaṃ etadavoca — “abhikkantā, bhante, ratti; nikkhanto pacchimo yāmo; uddhasto aruṇo; nandimukhī ratti; ciranisinnā āgantukā bhikkhū; paṭisammodatu, bhante, bhagavā, āgantukehi bhikkhūhī”ti.
 Then a third time, when the night was far advanced, at the end of the last watch, as dawn was approaching and the face of the night was beaming, Ven. Ānanda got up from his seat, arranged his robe over one shoulder, stood facing the Blessed One, paying homage to him with his hands placed palm-to-palm over his heart, and said to him, “The night, lord, is far advanced. The last watch has ended. Dawn is approaching and the face of the night is beaming. The visiting monks have been sitting here a long time. May the Blessed One greet them.”
♦ atha kho bhagavā tamhā samādhimhā vuṭṭhahitvā āyasmantaṃ ānandaṃ āmantesi — “sace kho tvaṃ, ānanda, jāneyyāsi ettakampi te nappaṭibhāseyya VAR . ahañca, ānanda, imāni ca pañca bhikkhusatāni sabbeva āneñjasamādhinā nisīdimhā”ti.
 Then the Blessed One, emerging from his imperturbable concentration, said to Ven. Ānanda, “Ānanda, if you had known, not even that much would have occurred to you (to say).1 I, along with all 500 of these monks, have been sitting in imperturbable concentration.”
Summary of KN Ud 3.3:
This sutta is closely related to AN 10.72 sutta on sound being a thorn to the four jhānas.
It even ends with the udāna verse about 3 thorns ended by an arahant,
The sutta starts with monks making very loud noises and the Buddha being disturbed by the noise, implying that the Buddha was experiencing sound as thorns in the 4 jhānas, just as in AN 10.72 the merchants in their carriages making a loud noise traveling.
The Buddha sends away the 500 noisy monks.
Those 500 monks meditate diligently, and all attain the 3 higher knowledges and imperturbable formless attainments.
The Buddha summons those monks.
Those 500 monks notice that the Buddha is in imperturbable samādhi, and sit down and also enter imperturbable samādhi.
Ānanda goes to the Buddha to announce the arrival of the 500 monks, but the Buddha doesn’t hear him and doesn’t respond.
Ānanda asks a few more times, over the course of the night (about a 4 hour period).
Same results, Buddha doesn’t respond.
Then next morning, the Buddha tells Ānanda, “if you had known that I and the 500 monks were in formless samādhi, you would not have talked to me expecting me to hear and respond to you.”

So to reiterate the two important points:
1. earlier when the 500 monks were not yet arahants, they were noisy and disturbing the Buddha with the noise. Since the Buddha is always in suññata or samādhi (4 jhānas can be a mode of suññata), then the Buddha would obviously be in one of the four jhānas when he heard the monks making loud noises.
2. at the end of the sutta when the Buddha and the 500 monks are in imperturbable samādhi and can not hear Ānanda talking to them, they are in the formless attainments and can not hear sounds. This is why AN 10.72 lists four jhānas as having sound be a thorn, but omits the 4 formless attainments.
3. Important implication: The fact that Ānanda saw the Buddha sitting quietly over the 4 hours entire night, and several times tried to talk to him, means that Ānanda generally expects the Buddha not to be in imperturbable samādhi. Instead, Buddha would typically be in four jhānas the majority or at least a good portion of the typical nightly four hour period. Otherwise Ānanda wouldn’t try to talk to him!
4. Deduction: the imperturbable samādhi here must be the formless attainments, rather than 4th jhāna, since they couldn’t hear Ānanda talking to them.

MN 43 mind divorced from 5 body faculties can know what? (3 formless attainments, not 4 jhanas!)

MN 43. Very simlar to AN 9.37, slightly different terminology to refer to 5 bodily senses.

[Ven. Mahā Koṭṭhita]: “divorced ****** (from the) five sense-faculties,
 ♦ 451. “nissaṭṭhena hāvuso, pañcahi indriyehi
(with a) purified mind-consciousness,
 parisuddhena mano-viññāṇena
what can-be-known?"
 kiṃ neyyan”ti?
[Ven. Sāriputta]: “divorced ****** (from the) five sense-faculties,
 ♦ “nissaṭṭhena āvuso, pañcahi indriyehi
(with a) purified mind-consciousness,
 parisuddhena mano-viññāṇena
‘infinite space,’ the-space-infinitude-dimension (can be) known,
 ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsān-añc-āyatanaṃ neyyaṃ,
‘infinite consciousness,’ the-consciousness-infinitude-dimension (can be) known,
 ‘anantaṃ viññāṇan’ti viññāṇ-añc-āyatanaṃ neyyaṃ,
‘There is nothing.’ the-nothingness-dimension (can be) known."
 ‘natthi kiñcī’ti ākiñcaññ-āyatanaṃ neyyan”ti.

MN 125 satipaṭṭhāna explicitly equated with first jhāna! If you can hear in 4sp, you can also hear in jhāna

MN 125.3.10 - (do 4sp with no kāma-vitakka/thoughts of sensuality = first jhāna)

MN 125 simile of war elephant in imperturbable 4th jhana withstanding onslaught from 5 sense doors

MN 125 ties in with khamo (resilience) to 5 sense doors from AN 5.113 and AN 5.139
MN 125.3.11.1 - (simile: monk developing 2nd through 4th jhāna → elephant tied up so it can’t move while training to be imperturbable to simulated weapons and battle stress)
MN 125.5 - (mark of sammā samādhi is khamo/patient endurance of any unpleasant experience)
MN 125.5.1 - (simile: successful monk with imperturbable 4th jhāna withstands cold, heat, mosquitoes → elephant in live battle struck by spears, swords, arrows)
MN 125.5.2 - (in the same way, repeat what monk does before elephant simile )

MN 137 upekkha of 4th jhāna is connected to 5 senses, upekkha of formless attainments is not

MN 137.5.1 - (upekkha based on diversity/nanatta are 3rd and 4th jhāna)
MN 137.5.2 - (upekkha based on unity/ekatta are 4 a-rūpa attainments)


SN 46.38 hearing & thinking the dhamma while in jhāna samādhi

SN 46.38 āvaraṇ-anīvaraṇa-suttaṃ
 SN 46.38 without-obstruction-without-hindrances-discourse
♦ “yasmiṃ, bhikkhave, samaye ariya-sāvako
 "whatever, *********, time (a) noble-one's-disciple,
aṭṭhiṃ katvā manasi katvā
 attending to it as a matter of vital concern,
sabbaṃ cetaso samann-āharitvā
 (with) entire mind directed (to it),
ohita-soto dhammaṃ suṇāti,
 (with) eager-ears, (the) dhamma (he) listens (to),
imassa pañca nīvaraṇā tasmiṃ samaye na honti.
 the five hindrances (at) that time (are) not present.
satta bojjh-aṅgā tasmiṃ samaye
 (the) seven awakening-factors (at) that time
bhāvanā-pāripūriṃ gacchanti.
 (their) development-fulfillment happens.
bodhi:
“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple listens to the Dhamma with eager ears, attending to it as a matter of vital concern, directing his whole mind to it, on that occasion the five hindrances are not present in him; on that occasion the seven factors of enlightenment go to fulfilment by development.

In a moment of practice where the 5 hindrances are absent, and all 7 awakening factors are fulfilled, that includes samādhi-sam-bojjhanga, which the next 2 passages show includes sammā samādhi, i.e. the four jhānas.

AN 10.3 samādhi-sambojjhanga includes sammā-samādhi (which in turn is 4 jhanas)

sīlavipannassa hatūpaniso hoti avippaṭisāro;
 (1) for an immoral person, for one deficient in virtuous behavior,
avippaṭisāre asati avippaṭisāravipannassa hatūpanisaṃ hoti pāmojjaṃ;
 (2) non-regret lacks its proximate cause. When there is no non-regret, for one deficient in non-regret,
pāmojje asati pāmojjavipannassa hatūpanisā hoti pīti;
 (3) joy lacks its proximate cause. When there is no joy, for one deficient in joy,
pītiyā asati pītivipannassa hatūpanisā hoti passaddhi;
 (4) rapture lacks its proximate cause. When there is no rapture, for one deficient in rapture,
passaddhiyā asati passaddhivipannassa hatūpanisaṃ hoti sukhaṃ;
 (5) tranquility lacks its proximate cause. When there is no tranquility, for one deficient in tranquility,
sukhe asati sukhavipannassa hatūpaniso hoti sammāsamādhi;
 (6) pleasure lacks its proximate cause. When there is no pleasure, for one deficient in pleasure,
sammāsamādhimhi asati sammāsamādhivipannassa hatūpanisaṃ hoti yathābhūtañāṇadassanaṃ;
 (7) right concentration lacks its proximate cause. When there is no right concentration, for one deficient in right concentration,
yathābhūtañāṇadassane asati yathābhūtañāṇadassanavipannassa hatūpaniso hoti nibbidāvirāgo;
 (8) the knowledge and vision of things as they really are lacks its proximate cause. When there is no knowledge and vision of things as they really are, for one deficient in the knowledge and vision of things as they really are,
nibbidāvirāge asati nibbidāvirāgavipannassa hatūpanisaṃ hoti vimuttiñāṇadassanaṃ.
 (9) disenchantment and dispassion lack their proximate cause. When there is no disenchantment and dispassion, for one deficient in disenchantment and dispassion,
(10) the knowledge and vision of liberation lacks its proximate cause.

SN 46.52 samādhi-sam-bojjhanga includes samādhi in 3 ways

SN 46 is the bojjhanga samyutta, and these 2 samādhis are 2 out of the “samadhi in 3 ways”, which are recognized by both EBT and commentaries as being equivalent to the 4 jhānas of sammā samādhi.

♦ “yadapi, bhikkhave,
 18“Whatever concentration there is accompanied by thought and examination is the enlightenment factor of concentration;
savitakko savicāro samādhi tadapi samādhisambojjhaṅgo,
 whatever concentration there is without thought and examination is also the enlightenment factor of concentration.103 "" Thus what is spoken of concisely as the enlightenment factor of concentration becomes,
yadapi avitakkāvicāro samādhi tadapi samādhisambojjhaṅgo.
 by this method of exposition,
‘samādhisambojjhaṅgo’ti iti hidaṃ uddesaṃ gacchati.
 twofold.
tadamināpetaṃ pariyāyena dvayaṃ hoti.

Vinaya Mv.II.3.4 “We listen with an ek’agga mind, an unscattered...

Vin Mv‍ 2.69, Mv.II.3.4 “We listen with an ek’agga mind, an unscattered...

In Mv.II.3.4, the phrase, “we pay attention,” in the instructions for how to listen to the Pāṭimokkha, is defined as: “We listen with an ek’agga mind, an unscattered mind, an undistracted mind.” Even if ek’agga were translated as “one-pointed” here, the “point” is obviously not so restricted as to make the ears fall silent. Otherwise, we would not be able to hear the Pāṭimokkha at all. And the fact that the mind is ek’agga doesn’t mean that we can’t also hear other sounds aside from the Pāṭimokkha. It’s just that those sounds don’t make the mind lose its focus on a single theme.

Vin 4, 2. uposathakkhandhako, 69. pātimokkhuddesānujānanā, para. 3 ⇒
Sādhukaṃ suṇomāti aṭṭhiṃ katvā manasi katvā sabbacetasā [sabbaṃ cetasā (syā. ka.)] samannāharāma.
 (We) listen properly means: having applied ourselves, having attended, we concentrate with all our mind.
Manasi karomāti ekaggacittā avikkhittacittā avisāhaṭacittā nisāmema. (Mhv. 2, Pātimokkhuddesānujānanā)
 (We) pay attention means: we listen, minds one-pointed, minds not distracted, minds not perturbed. (Mhv. 2, Allowance to recite the Pātimokkha)

Vinaya Parjika 4.1 Moggallana hears sound in imperturbable samadhi

passage analyzed in next section.
imperturbable (anenja) corresponds to most likely 3 formless perception attainments, but can also refer to a high quality fourth jhana capable of 6ab psychic powers.


Vimt. Arahant Upatissa, On sound and speech in jhāna

From Vimutti-magga, this is Arahant Upatissa’s explanation of speech ceasing in first jhāna, and the ability to hear sounds in jhāna:

Q. What are the miscellaneous teachings in the field of concentration?

A. Stoppage of sounds; overturning; rising; transcending; access; initial application of thought; feeling; uncertainty. “Stoppage of sounds”: In the first meditation, jhāna, speech is stopped. On entering the fourth meditation, jhāna, the yogin stops breathing.

Gradual stoppage of sounds: When the yogin enters into concentration, he hears sounds, but he is not able to speak because the faculty of hearing and that of speech are not united. To a man who enters form concentration {four jhānas}, sound is disturbing. Hence the Buddha taught: “To a man who enters meditation, jhāna, sound is a thorn”.

5 – Hearing and thinking while in Jhāna strongly implied

In conjunction with the principles established in the previous section, these passages support the idea of hearing dhamma and thinking about it while one is in first jhāna.

MN 70 hearing, memorizing, thinking dhamma for arahantship

MN 2, 2. bhikkhuvaggo, 10. kīṭāgirisuttaṃ (MN 70.1), para. 18 ⇒
 (bodhi trans.)
183. “nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, ādikeneva aññārādhanaṃ vadāmi; api ca, bhikkhave, anupubbasikkhā anupubbakiriyā anupubbapaṭipadā aññārādhanā hoti.
 “Bhikkhus, I do not say that final knowledge is achieved all at once. On the contrary, final knowledge is achieved by gradual training, by gradual practice, by gradual progress. [480]
kathañca, bhikkhave, anupubbasikkhā anupubbakiriyā anupubbapaṭipadā aññārādhanā hoti?
 “And how is final knowledge achieved by gradual training, gradual practice, gradual progress?
idha, bhikkhave, saddhājāto upasaṅkamati,
 Here one who has faith [in a teacher] visits him;
upasaṅkamanto payirupāsati,
 when he visits him, he pays respect to him;
payirupāsanto sotaṃ odahati,
 when he pays respect to him, he gives ear;
ohitasoto dhammaṃ suṇāti,
 one who gives ear hears the Dhamma;
sutvā dhammaṃ dhāreti,
 having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it;
dhatānaṃ dhammānaṃ atthaṃ upaparikkhati,
 he examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised;
atthaṃ upaparikkhato dhammā nijjhānaṃ khamanti,
 when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings;
dhammanijjhānakkhantiyā sati chando jāyati,
 when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him;
chandajāto ussahati,
 when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will;
ussāhetvā tuleti,
 having applied his will, he scrutinises;
tulayitvā padahati,
 having scrutinised, he strives;
pahitatto samāno kāyena ceva
 resolutely striving, he realises with the body
paramasaccaṃ sacchikaroti, paññāya ca naṃ ativijjha passati.
 the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom.708

seeing supreme truth seems to imply at least stream entry. Upa-parikkhato Is close in meaning to upekkha, both have the verb ikkhati (to look at, examine), as a base. Nij-jhānam has the same root as jhāna. Zeal, will, scrutiny, exertion are near synonyms of the 4 iddhi-pada. So if you read between the lines, upekkha and jhāna together means one has 4th jhāna, and then perfecting the 4th jhāna with the 4ip (iddhi pada) leads to stream entry of seeing supreme truth. In any case, whatever of the 37bp (bodhi pakkhiya) models from the framework you view this passage through, we know that stream entry can’t happen without jhāna and upekkha, so it’s hard to imagine nij-jhāna could refer to anything but the four-jhānas.


AN 9.41 Buddha practicing impure first jhāna

"So it is, Ananda. So it is. Even I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, thought: 'Renunciation is good. Seclusion is good.' But my heart didn't leap up at renunciation, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: 'What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'I haven't seen the drawback of sensual pleasures; I haven't pursued [that theme]. I haven't understood the reward of renunciation; I haven't familiarized myself with it. That's why my heart doesn't leap up at renunciation, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.'

[1] "Then the thought occurred to me: 'If, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I were to pursue that theme; and if, having understood the reward of renunciation, I were to familiarize myself with it, there's the possibility that my heart would leap up at renunciation, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace.'

"So at a later time, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of renunciation, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at renunciation, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. Then, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.

"As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset me was an affliction for me.

Read this sutta passage carefully, in conjunction with AN 5.113 and AN 5.139 . Right concentration means being able to withstand the sounds one is able to hear while in first jhāna. The key characteristic of first jhāna is turning away from 5 cords of sense pleasure and seeing the suffering in it, and instead turning to the pleasure of renunciation. That has nothing to do with being in a samādhi where the body disappears and can’t be felt, and sound can’t be heard. History and even among modern meditators you’ll find plenty of live cases of meditators who can do the Vism. Samādhi of no hearing, no body sensation, but they disrobe or clearly are not free from desire for 5 cords of sensual pleasure when they are not in that samādhi. The essence of Right Concentration is that you’ve trained yourself to instantly remove akusala thoughts and replace them with kusala thoughts, not just in sitting posture, but all the time.
Don’t forget the Buddha promised a gradual training compared to the beach ocean floor gently declining until there’s a steep drop off (representing Nirvana attainment, AN 8.19, 8.20, Ud 5.5). Rome wasn’t built in a day, and a samādhi with no hearing divorced from 5 sense faculties comes later, after fourth jhāna.


6 – Can you hear sound in imperturbable samādhi?

Moggallana hears loud elephant noises in imperturbable samādhi

♦ pārājikapāḷi ♦ 1. pārājikakaṇḍaṃ ♦ 4. catutthapārājikaṃ
 Vinaya Vibhanga, 4th pārājika
♦ 232. atha kho āyasmā mahāmoggallāno bhikkhū āmantesi —
 Venerable Mahāmoggallāna said to the monks:
“idhāhaṃ, āvuso, sappinikāya nadiyā tīre āneñjaṃ samādhiṃ samāpanno nāgānaṃ ogayha uttarantānaṃ koñcaṃ karontānaṃ saddaṃ assosin”ti.
 “After attaining an imperturbable samādhi on the banks of the river Sappinikā, I heard the noise of elephants plunging in, emerging, and trumpeting.”
bhikkhū ujjhāyanti khiyyanti vipācenti —
 The monks complained and criticized him:
“kathañhi nāma āyasmā mahāmoggallāno āneñjaṃ samādhiṃ samāpanno saddaṃ sossati!
 “How can Venerable Mahāmoggallāna say such a thing?
uttarimanussadhammaṃ āyasmā mahāmoggallāno ullapatī”ti.
 He’s claiming a super-human ability.”
bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ.
 They informed the Master.
“attheso, bhikkhave, samādhi so ca kho aparisuddho.
 “Monks, there is such a samādhi, but itʼs not wholly purified.
saccaṃ, bhikkhave, moggallāno āha.
 Moggallāna spoke truthfully.
anāpatti, bhikkhave, moggallānassā”ti.
 There’s no offense for Moggallāna.”

Imperturbable (āneñjaṃ), mainly refers to arupa formless attainments, and sometimes the 4th jhāna. A separate article on āneñjaṃ under 4nt → 8aam #8 examines all the passages where that attainment occurs.

The main point of this passage is Moggallana thought he was able to hear sounds WHILE in the imperturbable samadhi. The other monks accuse Moggallana of lying about having an attainment that he didn’t actually have, but the Buddha explains Moggallana just has an IMPURE imperturbable attainment.


DN 16 Buddha can’t hear in thunderstorm

presumably Buddha in formless samadhi

‘Idāni, bhante, deve vassante deve gaḷagaḷāyante vijjullatāsu niccharantīsu asaniyā phalantiyā
 ‘Just now, sir, it was raining and pouring, lightning was flashing, and thunder was cracking.
dve kassakā bhātaro hatā cattāro ca balibaddā.
 And two farmers who were brothers were killed, as well as four oxen.
Ettheso mahājanakāyo sannipatito.
 Then this crowd gathered here.
Tvaṃ pana, bhante, kva ahosī’ti?
 But sir, where were you?’
‘Idheva kho ahaṃ, āvuso, ahosin’ti.
 ‘I was right here, friend.’
‘Kiṃ pana, bhante, addasā’ti?
 ‘But sir, did you see?’
‘Na kho ahaṃ, āvuso, addasan’ti.
 ‘No, friend, I didn’t see anything.’
‘Kiṃ pana, bhante, saddaṃ assosī’ti?
 ‘But sir, didn’t you hear a sound?’
‘Na kho ahaṃ, āvuso, saddaṃ assosin’ti.
 ‘No, friend, I didn’t hear a sound.’
‘Kiṃ pana, bhante, sutto ahosī’ti?
 ‘But sir, were you asleep?’
‘Na kho ahaṃ, āvuso, sutto ahosin’ti.
 ‘No, friend, I wasn’t asleep.’
‘Kiṃ pana, bhante, saññī ahosī’ti?
 ‘But sir, were you conscious?’
‘Evamāvuso’ti.
 ‘Yes, friend.’
‘So tvaṃ, bhante, saññī samāno jāgaro deve vassante deve gaḷagaḷāyante vijjullatāsu niccharantīsu asaniyā phalantiyā neva addasa, na pana saddaṃ assosī’ti?
 ‘So, sir, while conscious and awake you neither saw nor heard a sound as it was raining and pouring, lightning was flashing, and thunder was cracking?’
‘Evamāvuso’ti?
 ‘Yes, friend.’
Atha kho, pukkusa, tassa purisassa etadahosi:
 Then that person thought:
‘acchariyaṃ vata bho, abbhutaṃ vata bho, santena vata bho pabbajitā vihārena viharanti.
 ‘It’s incredible, it’s amazing! Those who have gone forth remain in such peaceful meditations,
Yatra hi nāma saññī samāno jāgaro deve vassante deve gaḷagaḷāyante vijjullatāsu niccharantīsu asaniyā phalantiyā neva dakkhati, na pana saddaṃ sossatī’ti.
 in that, while conscious and awake he neither saw nor heard a sound as it was raining and pouring, lightning was flashing, and thunder was cracking.’

Āḷāra Kālāma doesn’t hear 500 carts pass by, presumably formless samadhi

“Kiñhi, bhante, karissanti pañca vā sakaṭasatāni cha vā sakaṭasatāni satta vā sakaṭasatāni aṭṭha vā sakaṭasatāni nava vā sakaṭasatāni, sakaṭasahassaṃ vā sakaṭasatasahassaṃ vā.
 “What do five hundred carts matter, or six hundred, or seven hundred, or eight hundred, or nine hundred, or a thousand, or even a hundred thousand carts?
Atha kho etadeva dukkaratarañceva durabhisambhavatarañca yo saññī samāno jāgaro deve vassante deve gaḷagaḷāyante vijjullatāsu niccharantīsu asaniyā phalantiyā neva passeyya, na pana saddaṃ suṇeyyā”ti.
 It’s far harder and more challenging to neither see nor hear a sound as it’s raining and pouring, lightning’s flashing, and thunder’s cracking!”

santa vihara, peaceful meditations, are not 4 jhānas

when Buddha and Alara were in samādhi where they couldn’t hear, it wasn’t the four jhānas.
MN 8 delineates this distinction clearly. 4 jhānas are ‘pleasant dwellings’, 4 formless attainments are ‘peaceful dwellings’.

7 – AN 10.72 sound can be a thorn in all four jhānas

AN 10.72 kaṇṭaka-suttaṃ

AN 10.72 kaṇṭaka-suttaṃ
 AN 10.72 thorns-discourse
ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā
 One time the-Blessed-one,
vesāliyaṃ viharati
 (at) vesāli (he) dwelled,
mahā-vane kūṭāgāra-sālāyaṃ
 (in the) great-wood, (in the) hall-with-peaked-roof,
sam-bahulehi abhiññātehi abhiññātehi
 {with} ***-many well known
therehi sāvakehi saddhiṃ —
 elder disciples {******} -
āyasmatā ca cālena,
 {and} Venerable cālena,
āyasmatā ca upacālena,
 {and} Venerable upacālena,
āyasmatā ca kukkuṭena,
 {and} Venerable kukkuṭena,
āyasmatā ca kaḷimbhena,
 {and} Venerable kaḷimbhena,
āyasmatā ca nikaṭena,
 {and} Venerable nikaṭena,
āyasmatā ca kaṭissahena;
 {and} Venerable kaṭissahena;
aññehi ca abhiññātehi abhiññātehi
 {and} other well known
therehi sāvakehi saddhiṃ.
 elder disciples accompanied (them).
♦ tena kho pana samayena
 Now on that occasion
sambahulā abhiññātā abhiññātā licchavī
 many very well-known Licchavis,
bhadrehi bhadrehi yānehi para-purāya
 (in their) very finest carriages from-town,
uccā-saddā mahā-saddā
 [making] loud-sounds, very-loud-sounds,
mahā-vanaṃ ajjhogāhanti
 (to the) Great-Wood (they) entered
bhagavantaṃ dassanāya.
 {to see} the-Blessed-one.
atha kho tesaṃ āyasmantānaṃ
 Then indeed (to) those Venerable-ones
etad-ahosi —
 this [thought] occurred -
“ime kho
 “these ***
sambahulā abhiññātā abhiññātā licchavī
 many very well-known Licchavis,
bhadrehi bhadrehi yānehi para-purāya
 (in their) very finest carriages from-town,
uccā-saddā mahā-saddā
 [making] loud-sounds, very-loud-sounds,
mahā-vanaṃ ajjhogāhanti
 (to the) Great-Wood (they) entered
bhagavantaṃ dassanāya.
 {to see} the-Blessed-one.
‘sadda-kaṇṭakā kho pana jhānā’
 'sound-(is a)-thorn indeed to jhānā'
vuttā bhagavatā.
 said the-Blessed-one.
yaṃnūna mayaṃ yena
 ******* we *****
gosiṅga-sāla-vanadāyo tenupasaṅkameyyāma.
 {should go} to gosiṅga-sāla-woods.
tattha mayaṃ appa-saddā app-ākiṇṇā
 there ***** (with) no-sounds (and) no-crowds,
phāsuṃ vihareyyāmā”ti.
 (in) comfort we-can-dwell".
atha kho te āyasmanto yena
 Then indeed those venerables
gosiṅgasālavanadāyo tenupasaṅkamiṃsu;
 (to) gosiṅga-sāla-woods (they) went;
tattha te āyasmanto appasaddā appākiṇṇā
 there ** ********* (with) no-sounds (and) no-crowds,
phāsuṃ viharanti.
 (in) comfort they-dwelled".
♦ atha kho bhagavā
 then indeed the-blessed-one
bhikkhū āmantesi —
 {addressed} the monks -
“kahaṃ nu kho, bhikkhave, cālo,
 where ** ***, *********, (is) cālo?
kahaṃ upacālo,
 where (is) upacālo?
kahaṃ kukkuṭo,
 where (is) kukkuṭo?
kahaṃ kaḷimbho,
 where (is) kaḷimbho?
kahaṃ nikaṭo,
 where (is) nikaṭo?
kahaṃ kaṭissaho;
 where (is) kaṭissaho?
kahaṃ nu kho te, bhikkhave,
 where have *** those, ***********,
therā sāvakā gatā”ti?
 elder disciples gone?"

(monks report incident to buddha)

♦ “idha, bhante,
 "Here, Lord,
tesaṃ āyasmantānaṃ etadahosi —
 those venerables [thought] that -
‘ime kho sambahulā abhiññātā abhiññātā licchavī
 '*** *** many well known licchavī
bhadrehi bhadrehi yānehi para-purāya
 (in their) very finest carriages from-town
uccā-saddā mahā-saddā
 [making] loud-sounds, very-loud-sounds,
mahā-vanaṃ ajjhogāhanti
 {entered} the-great-woods
bhagavantaṃ dassanāya
 {to see} the-blessed-one.
‘sadda-kaṇṭakā kho pana jhānā',
 'sounds-(are)-thorns indeed to jhānā',
vuttā bhagavatā
 said the-blessed-one.
yaṃnūna mayaṃ yena
 ******* we *****
gosiṅga-sāla-vanadāyo tenupasaṅkameyyāma
 {should go} to gosiṅga-sāla-woods.
tattha mayaṃ appa-saddā app-ākiṇṇā
 there ***** (with) no-sounds (and) no-crowds,
phāsuṃ vihareyyāmā’ti.
 (in) comfort we-can-dwell".
atha kho te, bhante, āyasmanto
 Then indeed those, ******, venerables
yena gosiṅgasālavanadāyo tenupasaṅkamiṃsu.
 (to) gosiṅga-sāla-woods (they) went;
tattha te āyasmanto appasaddā appākiṇṇā
 there ** ********* (with) no-sounds (and) no-crowds,
phāsuṃ viharantī”ti.
 (in) comfort they-dwelled".
♦ “sādhu sādhu, bhikkhave,
 "Good, good, monks!
yathā te mahā-sāvakā
 as those great-disciples
sammā byā-karamānā byā-kareyyuṃ,
 properly reacted (and) should-react,
‘sadda-kaṇṭakā hi, bhikkhave, jhānā’
 'sounds-(are)-thorns **, *********, (to) jhānā’
vuttā mayā.
 {I have} said.

(10 thorns)

“dasay-ime, bhikkhave, kaṇṭakā.
 “[There are] ten-(of)-these, *********, thorns.
katame dasa?
 Which ten?
(1) pa-vivek-ārāmassa
 (1) (for one who) enjoys-seclusion,
saṅgaṇik-ārāmatā kaṇṭako,
 enjoyment-of-society (is a) thorn,
(2) a-subha-nimitt-ānu-yogaṃ
 (2) (in the) {pursuit-of}-(the)-un-attractive-sign;
anu-yuttassa
 (for the) pursuer,
subha-nimitt-ānu-yogo kaṇṭako,
 {pursuit-of}-(the)-attractive-sign (is a) thorn,
(3) indriyesu
 (3) (the) sense-faculties;
gutta-dvārassa
 (for one) guarding-(the)-doors [of that],
visūka-dassanaṃ kaṇṭako,
 {viewing an}-unsuitable-show (is a) thorn,
(4) brahma-cariyassa
 (4) (for the) celibate-life,
mātugām-ūpacāro kaṇṭako,
 association-with-women (is a) thorn,
(5) paṭhamassa jhānassa
 (5) (for the) first jhāna,
saddo kaṇṭako,
 noise (is a) thorn,
(6) dutiyassa jhānassa
 (6) (for the) second jhāna,
vitakka-vicārā kaṇṭakā,
 thought and evaluation (is a) thorn,
(7) tatiyassa jhānassa
 (7) (for the) third jhāna,
pīti kaṇṭako,
 Rapture (is a) thorn,
(8) catutthassa jhānassa
 (8) (for the) fourth jhāna,
assāsa-passāso kaṇṭako,
 In-(and)-out breathing (is a) thorn,
(9) saññā-vedayita-nirodha-samāpattiyā
 (9) (for) perception-(and)-feelings'-cessation-attainment,
saññā ca vedanā ca kaṇṭako
 perception and feeling (is a) thorn,
(10) rāgo kaṇṭako
 (10) Lust (is a) thorn,
doso kaṇṭako
 hatred (is a) thorn,
moho kaṇṭako.
 delusion (is a) thorn.

(conclusion)

♦ “a-kaṇṭakā, bhikkhave, viharatha.
 "Thorn-less, monks, you-must-dwell!
nik-kaṇṭakā, bhikkhave, viharatha.
 without-thorns, monks, you-must-dwell!
a-kaṇṭaka-nik-kaṇṭakā, bhikkhave, viharatha.
 Thorn-less-(and)-without-thorns, monks, you-must-dwell!
a-kaṇṭakā, bhikkhave, arahanto;
 Thorn-less, monks, (are the) Arahants!
nik-kaṇṭakā, bhikkhave, arahanto;
 without-thorns, monks, (are the) Arahants!
a-kaṇṭaka-nik-kaṇṭakā, bhikkhave, arahanto”ti.
 Thorn-less-(and)-without-thorns, monks, (are the) Arahants!”
dutiyaṃ.
 (end of sutta)

commentary

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jhānā (plural), means sound is a thorn for all 4 jhānas, not just the first

‘sadda-kaṇṭakā hi, bhikkhave, jhānā’
 'sounds-(are)-thorns **, *********, (to) jhānā’
vuttā mayā.
 {I have} said.
vitakka vicara, piti, breathing, are 3 bonus thorns thrown in for jhānas #2 to #4.

many monks are mentioned, so this is a common problem

6 elder monks were famous enough to mention by name, and then the rest are referred to anonymously in the group that went to the forest to escape loud noises. The sutta seems to have been crafted deliberately this way to make the point that sound being a thorn in 4 jhānas is a common problem, not just an anomaly.

loud piercing noises from carts, horses, people

Anyone who meditates in a forest knows you have to deal with sound. Jungle noises, birds, waterfalls, wind blowing through trees, animals and insects stomping around on leaves, etc. So it’s not categorically all sounds that have to be thorns. Earlier we saw how ekaggata and AN 5.26 involve the ability to hear while in jhāna samādhi. If ambient jungle noise, for example, even sitting next to a loud waterfall, is not distracting your mind, then it’s not a thorn. Meditating in mild to moderate rain is quite noisy, but the noise is not a thorn for reasonably skilled meditators. But a thunderstorm with loud thunder piercing you at unpredicatable intervals, that’s a major thorn.

*4 formless attainments conspicuously absent from list of 10 thorns

This is because rupa attainments (4 jhānas) are not arupa (formless). In Arupa, as we’ll explore in detail in the next section, the Buddha uses clear and precise language to say the mind is divorced from 5 sense faculties (seeing, hearing, smelling, etc.). So if Arupa is divorced, rupa is still married to 5 sense faculties, one is still able to hear sounds.

Also notice this sutta thematically sits in isolation in AN 10, group of tens, instead of being sandwiched in the suttas in AN 9.30 to AN 9.60, in which all 30 suttas deal with the theme of 9 progressive samādhi attainments. One not reading this sutta carefully might think sound is a thorn in first jhana only, but is NOT a thorn in all the higher attainments because one can’t hear sounds at all. As pointed out earlier, sound Is a thorn for ALL FOUR jhānas, not just the first. And the fact that it’s in AN 10 is a signal that “sound” should not be treated in the same way V&V, pīti, sukha, and the breath are gross factors abandoned in succession in each higher stage of samādhi.

but why is samādhi attainment 9 on the list?

(9) saññā-vedayita-nirodha-samāpattiyā
 (9) (for) perception-(and)-feelings'-cessation-attainment,
saññā ca vedanā ca kaṇṭako
 perception and feeling (is a) thorn,
for cessation of perception and feeling, it’s the ”attainment of” (samāpattiyā), not the activity within that samadhi itself that is a thorn. In this case, sounds are thorns while one is in the process of trying to attain. Note that same qualifer of “attainment” is not applied to the 4 jhanas, and note once again the 4 formless attainments are missing.

Is the thorn an irritator, preventor, or destroyer?

For those who subscribe to the view that jhāna is VRJ (Visuddhimagga Redefinition of Jhāna), then the 10 thorn similes used in the sutta is quite puzzling and incoherent. For if sound is a thorn that prevents first jhāna, the other 9 thorns must “prevent” the activity being stated. But if you work through the list and try it out, it’s logically incoherent and impossible. It only works for first jhana, 2nd, 3rd, and fourth jhana. You run into the same kind of logical incoherence and impossibility if you treat the thorn as a “destroyer” of that attainment/activity. Only treating the sound as “an irritator” while one is in the moment to moment active process of doing that activity, does the thorn simile make sense logically and coherently for all 10 similes.

AN 9.41 how V&V, pīti are thorns for 2nd and 3rd jhāna

2nd jhana

"So at a later time, having seen the drawback of directed thought, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of being without directed thought, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at being without directed thought, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance.
"As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought that beset me was an affliction for me.

3rd jhana

[3] "The thought occurred to me: 'What if, with the fading of rapture, I were to remain in equanimity, mindful & alert, to be physically sensitive to pleasure, and to enter & remain in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, "Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding"?' But my heart didn't leap up at being without rapture, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace... So at a later time, having seen the drawback of rapture, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of being without rapture, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at being without rapture, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. With the fading of rapture, I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive to pleasure, and entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.'

"As I remained there, I was beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture. That was an affliction for me. Just as pain arises as an affliction for a healthy person, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with rapture that beset me was an affliction for me.

8 – Jhāna vs. VRJ

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EBT Jhāna versus the Visuddhi-magga Redefinition of Jhāna: If you found it difficult to follow the details of the last section, don’t worry. it’s not easy to comprehend. These images should help you. If you can keep these two images in mind, and remember that rupa is not arupa, you’ll eventually be able to follow all the detailed evidence and see clearly for yourself.

Bubble with pin This bubble represents the four EBT jhānas: The pin pressing on it is how sound affects a meditator. The higher the jhāna, the less the thorn is felt, but the sound can still be heard. The possible exception would be a purified imperturbable fourth jhāna, which straddles both rupa and arupa.

fortress The impenetrable fortress bubble represents VRJ, the Visuddhimagga Redefinition of Jhāna (all four rupa Jhānas). Sound can only be a thorn before you enter that fortress. Once you’re inside, you can’t hear sounds, you can’t feel mosquito bites, smell aromas, etc. The mind is divorced from the 5 sense faculties.

Jhāna in Vimutti-magga vs. Vism.

In EBT jhāna, and early Abhidhamma Jhāna (See Arahant Upatissa’s comments in Vimutti-magga), it’s not until you pass the 4 rupa jhānas and go into arupa formless attainments that the mind is divorced from 5 sense faculties.
see article: 4nt → 8aam #8 → EBT Jhāna Vs. Vism. Redefinition
for the detailed audit.

Tv Ab Kv 18.8 Abhidhamma book 5 seems to support VRJ.

Tv Ab Kv 18.8
https://suttacentral.net/pitaka/abhidhamma/pli-tv-ab
Saddaṁsuṇātītikathā—Shwe Zan Aung, C.A.F. Rhys Davids
Points of Controversy
18.8 Of Hearing in Jhāna
♦ 823. samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātīti? āmantā.
 Controverted Point: That one who has attained Jhāna hears sound.
samāpanno cakkhunā rūpaṃ passati ... pe ... sotena ... pe ... ghānena ... pe ... jivhāya ... pe ... kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusatīti? na hevaṃ vattabbe ... pe ....
 Theravādin: If so, it must be equally allowed that he can also see, smell, taste and touch objects. This you deny …
♦ samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātīti? āmantā. sotaviññāṇasamaṅgī samāpannoti?
 You must also allow that he enters Jhāna enjoying auditory consciousness.
na hevaṃ vattabbe. nanu samādhi manoviññāṇasamaṅgissāti?
 You deny, for you agree that concentration arises in one who is enjoying mental objects as such?
āmantā. hañci samādhi manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa, no ca vata re vattabbe — “samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātī”ti.
 But if you admit that anyone who is actually enjoying sounds hears sounds, and that concentration is the property of one who is actually enjoying mental objects as such,
♦ samādhi manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa, sotaviññāṇasamaṅgī saddaṃ suṇātīti? āmantā. hañci samādhi manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa, sotaviññāṇasamaṅgī saddaṃ suṇāti, no ca vata re vattabbe — “samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātī”ti. samādhi manoviññāṇasamaṅgissa, sotaviññāṇasamaṅgī saddaṃ suṇātīti? āmantā. dvinnaṃ phassānaṃ ... pe ... dvinnaṃ cittānaṃ samodhānaṃ hotīti? na hevaṃ vattabbe ... pe ....
 you should not affirm that one in the concentration of Jhāna hears sounds. If you insist that he does, you have here two parallel mental procedures going on at the same time … .
♦ 824. na vattabbaṃ — “samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātī”ti? āmantā. nanu paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatāti?
 Pubbaseliya: But was it not said by the Exalted One that “Sound is a thorn for First Jhāna”?
āmantā.
hañci paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatā, tena vata re vattabbe — “samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātī”ti.
 Hence one in Jhāna can surely hear sound.
♦ 825. paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatāti, samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātīti?
 Theravādin: You say that one in Jhāna can hear sound, and quote the Word as to it being for First Jhāna a “thorn”.
āmantā. dutiyassa jhānassa vitakko vicāro kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatā,
 Now it was further said that thought applied and sustained is a thorn for Second Jhāna—
atthi tassa vitakkavicārāti? na hevaṃ vattabbe ... pe ....
 does one in Second Jhāna have applied and sustained thought? …
♦ paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatāti, samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātīti? āmantā. tatiyassa jhānassa pīti kaṇṭako ... pe ...
 Again, it was further said that the mental factor last eliminated is a thorn for the stage newly attained—zest for Third,
catutthassa jhānassa assāsapassāso kaṇṭako ...
 respiration for Fourth Jhāna,
ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa rūpasaññā kaṇṭako...
 perception of visible objects for consciousness of space-infinity,
viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ samāpannassa ākāsānañcāyatanasaññā kaṇṭako...
 this perception for that of consciousness as infinite,
ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa viññāṇañcāyatanasaññā kaṇṭako...
 this perception for that of nothingness,
nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samāpannassa ākiñcaññāyatanasaññā kaṇṭako...
 this perception for that in neither perception nor non perception,
saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ samāpannassa saññā ca vedanā ca kaṇṭako vutto bhagavatā,
 perception and feeling for cessation
atthi tassa saññā ca vedanā cāti?
 of these in trance.
na hevaṃ vattabbe ... pe ....
 Now is “the thorn” actually present on the winning of the stage whence it is pronounced to be a thorn?
If not, then how can you say that the “thorn” of hearing sound is present to one in First Jhāna?
♦ saddaṃ suṇātītikathā niṭṭhitā.
 (end of section)

9 – Silence Isn’t Mandatory

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By Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu (Geoffrey DeGraff)
From https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Noble&True/Section0009.html

    Than.Breath 10.5 - Silence Isn’t Mandatory: Sensory Perception in the Jhānas
        Than.Breath 10.5.1 - Background: the Nine Attainments
        Than.Breath 10.5.2 - Silence in the Formless Attainments
        Than.Breath 10.5.3 - Buddhaghosa’s Interpretations
        Than.Breath 10.5.4 - More Arguments for Silence in the First Jhāna
        Than.Breath 10.5.5 - Purity of Concentration
        Than.Breath 10.5.6 - The Right Use of Concentration

10 – Misc.

DA 10 thorn of sound ceases in first jhana allegedly

(trans. Sylvester)
云何九證法？謂九盡： 若入初禪，則聲 刺 滅。
 What are the the 9 states to be attained? That is to say the 9 Cessations. When one enters the First Dhyana, the thorn of sounds ceases.

Thanks for that interesting passage Sylvester. I asked Dr. Chu, an Agama expert for his take:

This obviously is inconsistent with what other suttas say. Other suttas state that sound is a thorn in first jhana, and this one states that the thorn of sounds ceases–a direct contradiction.
There are many typos and mistranslations in the Taisho. I would chalk it up to such abnormality. Or, I would read “thorn of sounds ceases” in some peculiar way: e.g. seclusion can mean being away from crowds and their boisterousness, and being born of seclusion, first jhana is an escape from them.

Frank: From what I remember the agama for parallel to AN 10.72 (sounds are a thorn sutta) match pretty closely, so the DA passage would contradict that. That DA passage seems to be a single anomaly, Sylvester knew of no other agama passages corroborate.




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