ļ»æ

4šŸ‘‘ā˜ø Cattāri Ariya-saccaį¹ƒ å››č–č«¦

4šŸ‘‘ā˜ø ā†’ EBpediašŸ“š ā†’ Gold Vol.2   šŸ”—šŸ“   ļ»æšŸ”

Counterfeit Gold: The Corruption of Samādhi


ļ»æ         Gold Vol.2 4.3.1 - j1šŸŒ˜ First Jhāna
            Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1 - vivicceva kāmehi = judicious-seclusion from sensual pleasures
                Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1.6 ā€“ ā›”Ajahn Brahm school of heretical interpretations on first jhānaā€™s kāmehi
                    Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1.6.1 ā€“ Billionaire playboy tires of his harem and goes into seclusion: Or, Why it's better to translate first jhāna's kāmehi as 'sensuality'
                    Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1.6.3 ā€“ Ajahn Brahm's junk-o-rāma, vs. Billionaire playground kāma-rāma, which one would you rather go to?
                    Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1.6.5 ā€“ MN 111 Ven. Sunyo (Ajahn Brahm Jhāna) and Ven. Analayo claim emergence with sati in 8th and 9th attainment proves jhāna is a frozen absorbed state
                    Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1.6.7 ā€“ vinaya Bhikkhu Vibhanga translation: Ajahn Brahmali murders the Buddha's physical body in the four jhānas
        Gold Vol.2 4.5.1 ā€“ MettāšŸ¤šŸ¤—: friendly-kindness
            Gold Vol.2 4.5.1.1 ā€“ Metta is not 'love'
                Gold Vol.2 4.5.1.1.5 ā€“ Kp 9, Snp 1.8: a new reading of the Mettasutta [from Sujato] that will change everything [for the worse]
            Gold Vol.2 10.1.4...19.1 ā€“ MN 19 What would happen to the cowherd following Ajahn Brahm's redefinition of jhāna?
    Gold Vol.2 999.9 ā€“ TOC permalinks

If you're practicing corrupted sutta instructions on jhāna & samādhi, it feels like running a mile in 128-degree(f) Death Valley dressed as Darth Vader

If you're attempting, doing, or close to the Buddha's Jhāna, it should feel like this

detailed TOC

ļ»æ Gold Vol.2 4 ā€“
    Gold Vol.2 4.1 ā€“ four exertions = right effort = vÄ«riya
    Gold Vol.2 4.2 ā€“ four satipaį¹­į¹­hāna
    Gold Vol.2 4.3 ā€“ four jhānas
        Gold Vol.2 4.3.1 - j1šŸŒ˜ First Jhāna
            Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1 - vivicceva kāmehi = judicious-seclusion from sensual pleasures
                Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1.6 ā€“ ā›”Ajahn Brahm school of heretical interpretations on first jhānaā€™s kāmehi
                    Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1.6.1 ā€“ Billionaire playboy tires of his harem and goes into seclusion: Or, Why it's better to translate first jhāna's kāmehi as 'sensuality'
                    Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1.6.3 ā€“ Ajahn Brahm's junk-o-rāma, vs. Billionaire playground kāma-rāma, which one would you rather go to?
                    Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1.6.5 ā€“ MN 111 Ven. Sunyo (Ajahn Brahm Jhāna) and Ven. Analayo claim emergence with sati in 8th and 9th attainment proves jhāna is a frozen absorbed state
                    Gold Vol.2 4.3.1.1.6.7 ā€“ vinaya Bhikkhu Vibhanga translation: Ajahn Brahmali murders the Buddha's physical body in the four jhānas
        Gold Vol.2 4.3.2 - j2šŸŒ— Second Jhāna
        Gold Vol.2 4.3.3 - j3šŸŒ– Third Jhāna
        Gold Vol.2 4.3.4 - j4šŸŒ• Fourth Jhāna
    Gold Vol.2 4.4 ā€“ iddhi-pāda: four power bases and ASND
    Gold Vol.2 4.5 ā€“ four brahma-vihāras: divine attitudes
        Gold Vol.2 4.5.1 ā€“ MettāšŸ¤šŸ¤—: friendly-kindness
            Gold Vol.2 4.5.1.1 ā€“ Metta is not 'love'
                Gold Vol.2 4.5.1.1.5 ā€“ Kp 9, Snp 1.8: a new reading of the Mettasutta [from Sujato] that will change everything [for the worse]
        Gold Vol.2 4.5.2 ā€“ Karuį¹‡ÄšŸ‘šŸ˜Š: compassion
        Gold Vol.2 4.5.3 ā€“ MuditāšŸ˜Š: Rejoicing in skillful Dharmas
        Gold Vol.2 4.5.4 ā€“ UpekkhāšŸ›†šŸ‘: equanimous-observation
        Gold Vol.2 4.5.5 ā€“ 4bvā˜®ļø misc.
Gold Vol.2 10 -
    Gold Vol.2 10.1 ā€“ sutta analysis
        Gold Vol.2 10.1.1 ā€“ AN
        Gold Vol.2 10.1.2 ā€“ DN
        Gold Vol.2 10.1.3 ā€“ KN
        Gold Vol.2 10.1.4 ā€“ MN
            Gold Vol.2 10.1.4...19.1 ā€“ MN 19 What would happen to the cowherd following Ajahn Brahm's redefinition of jhāna?
        Gold Vol.2 10.1.5 ā€“ SN
Gold Vol.2 24 ā€“ jhāna all the time 24/7, all 4 postures
    Gold Vol.2 24.1 ā€“ 4 JhānasšŸŒ• ā‰ˆ 4 Satipaį¹­į¹­hānašŸ˜
    Gold Vol.2 24.2 ā€“ jhāna all the time 24/7
    Gold Vol.2 24.3 ā€“ Jhāna in all 4 postures
    Gold Vol.2 24.4 ā€“You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas
    Gold Vol.2 24.5 ā€“ learner's jhāna, impure jhāna, is still called "jhāna":
Gold Vol.2 100 ā€“ commentary
Gold Vol.2 999 ā€“ Bookmarks of interest
    Gold Vol.2 999.9 ā€“ TOC permalinks

Counterfeit Gold: The Corruption of Samādhi

.
 .

1.1 ā€“ Introduction and overview

The Goldcraft series on Samādhi

ļ»æ The Goldcraft series on Samādhi:
Volume 1: Goldcraft - The Perfection of Samādhi
    A systematic manual on all the meditation techniques taught by the Buddha from the point of view of EBT suttas.
Volume 2: Gold Vol.2 - Counterfeit Gold, The Corruption of Samādhi
    Analysis and audits detailing how LBT scripture deviates from EBT definition of meditation techniques.
* title of book inspired by the similes from AN 3.101, AN 3.102, MN 140,
* order of chapters is non linear, numbers for chapters are designed to be easy to associate with the topic and massively cross reference within book with hyperlinks.

Seinfeld jokes about jhāna, vitakka and vicāra

I heard this joke from Seinfeld, I'm paraphrasing from memory:

What's with 'grape nuts'*?
You pour it out of the box into a bowl,
there are no grapes,
and there are no nuts.

People can just redefine words into whatever they want now?
What's next?
'Shoes' are 'milk'.
You put socks on your feet,
and then you pour 'shoes' all over them.

* 'grape nuts' = the product name of an American breakfast dry cereal that you pour into a bowl, add milk, and eat.

pic for pour shoes
Seinfeld might as well have been joking about Visuddhimagga and Ajahn Brahm redefining jhāna.
What's with 'vitakka' and 'vicāra' * in first jhāna,
according to Ajahn Brahm and Visuddhimagga?

There's no thinking,
there's no evaluation,
nothing that resembles vacī-sankhāra,
linguistic labels or communicable speech.

You pour first jhāna into a bowl,
and there's no vitakka and vicāra to be found.

Just placing your mind and keeping it in a frozen stupor for a predetermined amount of time.

So monks can just redefine fundamental words with established meaning
into anything they want now?

What's next?
Redefining 'body' as
a 'body of mental factors completely devoid of a body?'ā¹ļø
pic for rewriting dictionary

4 ā€“

4.1 ā€“ four exertions = right effort = vÄ«riya

4.2 ā€“ four satipaį¹­į¹­hāna

4.3 ā€“ four jhānas

4.3.1 - j1šŸŒ˜ First Jhāna

4.3.1.1 - vivicceva kāmehi = judicious-seclusion from sensual pleasures

āœ…right view version of this gloss here: Goldcraft 4.3.1.1

4.3.1.1.6 ā€“ ā›”Ajahn Brahm school of heretical interpretations on first jhānaā€™s kāmehi
4.3.1.1.6.1 ā€“ Billionaire playboy tires of his harem and goes into seclusion: Or, Why it's better to translate first jhāna's kāmehi as 'sensuality'
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2023/07/billionaire-playboy-tires-of-his-harem.html
example to show problem with kāmehi as "sensual pleasures" in first jhāna:
Billionaire playboy Tony Stark got tired of his harem of beautiful girl friends and hedonic lifestyle indulging in the 5 cords of sensual pleasure,
so he went into the forest for seclusion from those sensual pleasures to meditate.
6 months later he emerged from his secluded forest meditation retreat,
and lust and desire returned in full force.

And that's why I follow Thanissaro translation of kāmā as "sensuality", AN 6.63, KN Pe and Ab Vb first jhāna gloss.
It's more accurate and prevents that kind of misinterpretation of temporary disenchantment from lust and passion for sensual pleasures.

First jhāna marks not just a meditative skill accomplishment,
but a deeper understanding of suffering and its cause,
and a tangible impact eroding the power of craving, lust, desire.

In mangling 'kāmehi' in the sutta formula for first jhāna,
Ajahn Brahm and Vism.'s redefinition of "jhāna" as a disembodied frozen stupor,
removes the critically important link to the second noble truth,
the first jhāna's important role in reducing the cause of suffering.

4.3.1.1.6.3 ā€“ Ajahn Brahm's junk-o-rāma, vs. Billionaire playground kāma-rāma, which one would you rather go to?
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2023/07/ajahn-brahms-junk-o-rama-vs-billionaire.html
To illustrate the difference between Ajahn Brahm's interpretation of kāmehi in first jhāna
as "any objects of the 5 senses" (sights, sounds, smells, tastes...)
vs. a correct EBT interpretation of kāmehi as "desire for 5 cords of sensual pleasure which are pleasing, enticing..."

here is a simile:
There are two pleasure parks (ārāma)

1. Junk-o-rāma: Ajahn Brahm owns a junk yard full of anything than can be constructed
with rūpa (4 elements), so long as it's of no use, not alluring, not pleasing or desirable to anyone.

2. Kāma-rāma: Billionaire playboy Tony Stark owns a pleasure playground fully equipped with anything one can desire to please the 5 senses,
such as beautiful women, the best food, the best music, the best shows, the best video games, the best gambling casinos, etc.
Open 24 hours a day, all you can eat, etc.

Suppose there are 7 billion people on the planet who never practiced meditation seriously before.
They go on a retreat to learn first jhāna.

According to Ajahn Brahm, people will have trouble attaining first jhāna,
because they long to be in his junk-o-rāma junkyard.

Because of the longing and craving for junk,
they find the only escape from junk (any objects of the 5 senses),
is to enter a disembodied frozen stupor meditation where they can no longer hear sounds, see things, feel mosquito bites, etc.

Does that make any sense to you?
Or does this make more sense:

1. Billionaire playboy Tony Stark offered free passes to his Kāma-rāma pleasure playground
for anyone who wants to go there instead of going on the first jhāna meditation retreat.

So out of the 7 billion people going on their first jhāna retreat,
what percent of them think Ajahn's Junk-o-rāma is what the Buddh'as first jhāna is referring to,
as the primary threat to their entry into first jhāna?

Or do you think they find Kāma-rāma pleasure palace the real threat
to distract and prevent them from entering first jhāna?

If you know the answer to that question,
then you know what kāmehi in the Buddha's first jhāna formula is referring to.

4.3.1.1.6.5 ā€“ MN 111 Ven. Sunyo (Ajahn Brahm Jhāna) and Ven. Analayo claim emergence with sati in 8th and 9th attainment proves jhāna is a frozen absorbed state
excerpt from
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2023/07/mn-111-ven-sunyo-ajahn-brahm-jhana-and.html
MN 111 Ven. Sunyo (Ajahn Brahm Jhāna) and Ven. Analayo claim emergence with sati in 8th and 9th attainment proves jhāna is a frozen absorbed state
A point which I disprove below.

Also discussing exactly what the Buddha means by sati (mindfulness),
and how that can not exist in Ajahn Brahm's disembodied frozen state (his redefinition of jhāna).
...
I didn't address that part of Analayo's argument (on emerging from absorption),
because it's disconnected from the point I made,
which I described in short, described in detail with the link to the audit,
which you didn't contest so I assume you agree.
Namely, his fallacious use of circular reasoning.
He assumes attainments 1-7 are "absorption" states which requiring emerging from,
and treats it as fact without ever proving it (what absorption is and why it needs emerging from).
Like saying the Bible is the word of god because God says so in the bible.
It's enough to discredit his fallacious analysis of MN 111.
It doesn't require the point he contests about emerging with 'mindfulness' to be valid.

Whereas if he wants to avoid the circular reasoning fallacy,
he needs not just that emerging point to be true,
he needs other things as well which he doesn't provide.

But let me address the point you bring up about the emergence with "mindfulness" in the 8th and 9th attainment,
since you both seen to misunderstand something about how sati works.
The Buddha's definition of sati in SN 47.2 works everywhere sati is used in the suttas.
Sati means "do the 4 satipatthana, see body as a body as it truly is, with right effort, with sati and sampajāno (lucid discerning), etc. with all 4 frames".
The sati being recursively referenced within 4 satipatthana must be referring to the sati-indriya of recalling what was said and done long ago.
In other words, what the Buddha means by "mindfulness" (sati),
is different than what Analayo, psychotherapists, and sadly, many Buddhist teachers think "sati" means.

The Buddha's authoritative definition of sati ("mindfulness") means remember and apply the Dharma at all times.
And the Default value of "Dharma" is the 4 satipatthana formula as defined in SN 47.2.
Even when the Dharma that sati remembers is overridden by a specific Dharma to apply in context (for example 16 steps breath meditation),
that specific Dharma, in every case I ever checked those specific Dharmas are subsets of the Dharma of Satipatthana formula.
This should not be surprising, since the very first sutta in satipatthana samyutta,
describes the practice of it in a way that parallels very closely the four noble truths.
Whenever one remembers Dharma of 4 noble truths, it's relevant to seeing dukkha, seeing the cause and way to end dukkha.
That's what sati means, and it works in everywhere in the suttas.
Plug it in and try it out.

So back to MN 111 and the point about the 8th and 9th attainment.
If you want to emphasize that it's "sati" that's the more important issue, over "emergence", let's examine that.
so tāya samāpattiyā sato vuį¹­į¹­hahati.
He emerged from that attainment remembering [Dharma].
so tāya samāpattiyā sato vuį¹­į¹­hahitvā
On emerging from that attainment with remembrance,
ye dhammā VAR atÄ«tā niruddhā vipariį¹‡atā te dhamme samanupassati ā€”
he regarded the past dharma-[phenomena] that had ceased & changed:
So the reason the Buddha talks about emerging with sati remembering dharma is because the 8th and 9th attainment are frozen states where one can not see those dharmas arising and passing in real time.
The next line after "emerging with mindfulness" makes that very point,
about examining those "dharma-[phenomena] that had ceased & changed" while one was frozen.
So it's not "sati" being emphasized over emergence,
it's simply pointing to the fact that one is remembering past dharmas from the frozen state.

Ultimately the problem with your position,
Ajahn Brahm's redefinition of jhāna as a disembodied frozen state,
is that it also is frozen, and would require one to emerge before one can examine past dharmas from the frozen state.

Which means the lack of that "emerging with sati" statement in the first 7 statements is further support that the 7 perception attainments are not frozen states.
I don't know what you and Ajahn Brahm define for sati ("mindfulness"),
but I don't see how you can do that in Ajahn brahm's disembodied frozen state.
Whereas we can state definitively you can't do the Buddha's definition of sati in Ajahn Brahm's disembodied frozen state.

AN 9.36 is a similar sutta, singling out the 8th and 9th attainment requiring emergence.
Furthermore, the 3 formless perception attainments (#5,6,7), unlike the first 4 attainments,
only do vipassana on the latter 4 aggregates, omitting rūpa.
So if your position were true, that emergence from first 7 attainments is already known that it requires emerging without the Buddha having to explicitly state it,
then why is the vipassana from attainments 5-7 avoid doing vipassana on rūpa?
If you've emerged from formless attainment, you should be able to look at rūpa, internal or external.

There's also a large burden of proof for you to show exactly why you think it's implied there's emergence from a frozen disembodied jhāna
even though the passages in MN 111 and AN 9.36 seem to really go out of their way to specifically point out factors and activity
that are trying to explain the limited range of things one can do while in an embodied non-frozen jhāna.

AN 9.36 lack of perception of rūpa in attainments 5-7 supports the embodiment.
MN 111 specifically references having will, intention, desire, things you can not do when in a frozen state.

If your position were correct, that automatic emergence from first 7 attainments is implied,
it would suffice to say in those suttas that "then they contemplate the rise and fall of 5 aggregates,
without having to pointedly say one has will, desire, and intention to examine those factors that are in that jhāna one is in.

4.3.1.1.6.7 ā€“ vinaya Bhikkhu Vibhanga translation: Ajahn Brahmali murders the Buddha's physical body in the four jhānas
excerpt from
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2023/07/ajahn-brahmali-vinaya-bhikkhu-vibhanga.html

Ajahn Brahmali murders the Buddha's physical body in the four jhānas and turns it into a ghost.

He also removes the Buddha's mental function and vipassana capability (while in jhāna) and turned it into a disembodied frozen stupor:

Vinā€ ā†’ Tv Bu Vbā€ parajika, 4 jhānas formula.
first jhāna: Fully secluded from the five senses,...
second jhāna: Through the stilling of the movement of the mind...
third jhāna: ...experiencing bliss directly,... (butchered sukham ca kāyena patisamvedeti)

Frank resurrects the Buddha's physical body in the four jhānas and restores his mental functions

here: Goldcraft 4.3

Brahmali strangles the Buddha

Brahmali strangles the Buddha and tells him to observe his breath while pretending breath sensations happen without a physical body in the 16 steps breath meditation:
Sabba-kāya-ppaį¹­isaį¹vedÄ« assasissāmÄ«ti sikkhati.
Sabba-kāya-ppaį¹­isaį¹vedÄ« passasissāmÄ«ti sikkhati.
When breathing in, he trains in fully experiencing the breath;
when breathing out, he trains in fully experiencing the breath.

Buddha says you can't be fully aware of a physical breath without contact with physical sensations in your physical body

You also can't calm the breath and calm the body effectively without being sensitive and filling the physical body with your awareness to notice where it's tense and where it's relaxed.
Buddha's correct breath meditation instructions here: Goldcraft 16

Does the Critical pāįø·i dictionary also say kāmehi, the 5 objects of sensual pleasure are the same as the 5 sense organs that perceive those 5 objects?

Because Brahmali seems to think so.

So kho ahaį¹, brāhmaį¹‡a, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaį¹ savicāraį¹ vivekajaį¹ pÄ«tisukhaį¹ paį¹­hamaį¹ jhānaį¹ upasampajja vihāsiį¹.
Fully secluded from the five senses, secluded from unwholesome mental qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has movement of the mind, as well as the joy and bliss of seclusion.
At this point, one has to wonder why Brahmali is an ordained Theravada Bhikkhu.

Why not just make a clean break and start your own religion, instead of desecrating the Buddha's words?
Even Vism. followers are not so brazen as to translate the four jhāna formula as Brahmali does.

4.3.2 - j2šŸŒ— Second Jhāna

4.3.3 - j3šŸŒ– Third Jhāna

4.3.4 - j4šŸŒ• Fourth Jhāna

4.4 ā€“ iddhi-pāda: four power bases and ASND

see ASND šŸŒ•šŸŒŸā€ , SN 51.0, AN 6.29

4.5 ā€“ four brahma-vihāras: divine attitudes

4.5.1 ā€“ MettāšŸ¤šŸ¤—: friendly-kindness

4.5.1.1 ā€“ Metta is not 'love'

4.5.1.1.5 ā€“ Kp 9, Snp 1.8: a new reading of the Mettasutta [from Sujato] that will change everything [for the worse]
excerpt from
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2022/11/kp-9-new-reading-of-mettasutta-from.html
I respond to a few quotes from Sujato's article:

Sujato:
The Mettasutta urges us to spread love to all beings, including those who are ā€œborn or to be bornā€

Frankk: Actually, the metta sutta urges us to spread 'metta', not 'love'. 
You admit elsewhere that:
And it is true that Pali distinguishes sensual love (kāma, pema, etc.) from spiritual love (mettā), much like the Greek eros and agape.

Yet, you fail to consider the spectrum of overlap between spirtual and sexual love, as well as the entangling attachment that mothers have for their only son, which is neither sexual yet too clingy and attached to be considered spiritual.

So where the Buddha's instruction to spread 'metta' is unambiguous in containing no possibility of sexual love, no sensual love (of 5 sensual pleasures),  no clingy familial love and attachment, you have somehow determined it's okay to use 'love', since you claim the ambiguity you introduce can be disambiguated easily by context.


Sujato:
I once asked a Catholic contemplative monk about this. His native language was Italian. He said there is no equivalent distinction in modern Italian; they just use amore in both cases and let the context make the meaning clear. I adopted the same approach, and it seems to work fine.

Frank:
So Sujato's justification is, since an Italian Cathlolic used amore ("love") ambiguously for Catholic religion, someone introducing that same kind of ambiguity works great for Buddhist India, and the modern English speaking world? 
In Catholicism, maybe the spectrum of overlap between sexual/sensual/spirtual love does not cause a problem in their ultimate goal, union with God. But clearly an ordained Buddhist Monk should realize the spectrum of attached 'love' (outside of Sujato's coarse two antithetical categories of 'eros' and 'agape'), would prevent the Buddhist goal of nirvana. 

Sujato also assumes the Italian Catholic using 'amore/love' ambiguously is not a problem in Catholicism. I doubt the other Catholic countries would agree people can easily distinguish and recognize context between sensual ('eros') and spiritual ('agape') love. 

Basically, this is just a weak rationalization for Sujato to introduce ambiguity of 'love' into Buddhist 'metta'. 


Sujato:
... I adopted the same approach [using 'love' ambiguously], and it seems to work fine.

Frank:
Translating 'metta' as 'love' absolutely does not work fine. First you build a straw man using 'loving-kindness' as the only widely accepted translation of 'metta'. Then you post your essay in your sheltered forum of sycophants, adoring followers, and forum moderators who ban and censor users and posts which raise polite and reasonable opposition to your untenable ideas. 
Of course things 'seem to work fine' when you're in a group think echo chamber. 


Sujato:
I suspect that the real reason for the rendering of ā€œloving-kindnessā€ is that we can be uncomfortable around expressing emotions. ā€œLoving-kindnessā€ is a more distancing word; itā€™s emotionally cooler than ā€œloveā€. I prefer the more direct, ordinary language expression.


Frank:
Your job as a translator, and as an ordained Buddhist monk, is not to translate "how you prefer", but to translate, as objectively and honestly as possible, how you think the Buddha intended. 
Translation of course has shades of grey and room for disagreement, but here it's cut and dried where you admit the Buddha's metta is unambiguous (all 'agape', no 'eros'), yet you introduce dangerous ambiguity.

It's dangerous because it then becomes completely unclear how one is to practice 'metta', according to your translation of the metta sutta (Kp 9): 

Even as a mother would protect with her lifeMātā yathā niyaį¹ puttamher child, her only child,Āyusā ekaputtamanurakkhe;so too for all creaturesEvampi sabbabhÅ«tesu,unfold a boundless heart.Mānasaį¹ bhāvaye aparimāį¹‡aį¹.

With "love" for the whole world,MettaƱca sabbalokasmi,unfold a boundless heart.Mānasaį¹ bhāvaye aparimāį¹‡aį¹;Above, below, all round,Uddhaį¹ adho ca tiriyaƱca,unconstricted, without enemy or foe.Asambādhaį¹ averamasapattaį¹.


Frankk:
How that instruction reads, is one should regard all humans, all animals, all beings in the universe as a mother loves her only child. (even if we assume Sujato has a correct translation and interpretation of that mother/child metaphor, using 'love' in that passage slants the interpretation of that metaphor in that way. Someone on Sujato's essay thread asked about that very issue soon after he posted, which he then deflected instead of just giving a short straight answer). 

Thanissaro's translation of the same passage, gives a very different impression of how 'metta' ('good will') is spread to the world:

As a mother would risk her life

to protect her child, her only child,

even so should one cultivate the heart limitlessly

with regard to all beings.1

With goodwill for the entire cosmos,

cultivate the heart limitlessly:

above, below, & all around,

unobstructed, without hostility or hate.


One of the hallmarks of the Dhamma, is that it's eminently useful. It's pragmatic, it's practical, it's timely and it works. How can you possibly spread Sujato's "love" to the world? It's hard enough to keep track of just one dear son, now you have to be a mother to the bazillion number of beings in the universe? How do you have the time, energy, and capability to do that?

Whereas having 'good will' (metta), an intention to do no harm, can be spread to all the beings in the world simultneously, and beings will pick it up just as easily as people are affected by a warm smile or an angry frown. 

Think of the simile of the saw. If bandits were to saw off your limbs, according to Sujato, you should 'love' them and protect them as if they're your only dear child. 
Is that practical or even useful?

Or would spreading metta (of good will, friendliness, benevolence) sound more do-able? 
Firmly staying with an intention to do no harm to any living being (which creates endless blood feuds and endless rounds of rebirth)?
That seems do-able, yes?
And that makes much more sense regarding the metaphor of a mother fiercely protecting her only child, guarding that state of mind that does no harm and creates no evil karmic consequences.

Spread "metta" to the world without limit,  not Sujato's "love".  

-Frankk




4.5.1.1.6 ā€“ Proof that metta as ā€˜loveā€™ is wrong translation
search "Mettaį¹ƒ kāyakammaį¹ƒ" 12 texts and 18 matches in Suttanta Pali
AN 5.105 Phāsuvihārasutta Living Comfortably
AN 6.11 Paį¹­hamasāraį¹‡Ä«yasutta Warm-hearted (1st)
AN 6.12 Dutiyasāraį¹‡Ä«yasutta Warm-hearted (2nd)
AN 11.17 Gopālasutta The Cowherd
DN 16 Mahāparinibbānasutta The Great Discourse on the Buddhaā€™s Extinguishment
DN 33 Saį¹…gÄ«tisutta Reciting in Concert
DN 34 Dasuttarasutta Up to Ten
KN (no matches)
MN 31 CÅ«įø·agosiį¹…gasutta The Shorter Discourse at Gosiį¹…ga
MN 33 Mahāgopālakasutta The Longer Discourse on the Cowherd
MN 48 Kosambiyasutta The Mendicants of Kosambī
MN 104 Sāmagāmasutta At Sāmagāma
MN 128 Upakkilesasutta Corruptions

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2019/09/mn-48-b-sujatos-translation-of-metta-as.html
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2022/04/bsujato-translates-metta-as-love.html

This is an important passage used repeatedly in the suttas,
a fundamental everyday aspect of monk community life,
describing how metta is practiced among the monk community.

MN 48 thanissaro translation (metta = "good will")
Then the Blessed One addressed the monks:
ā€œMonks, these six are conditions that are conducive to amiability,
that engender feelings of endearment, engender feelings of respect,
leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.
Which six?

ā€œThere is the case where a monk is set on bodily acts of good will with regard to his companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs.
This is a condition that is conducive to amiability, that engenders feelings of endearment, engenders feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.

ā€œAnd further, the monk is set on verbal acts of good will with regard to his companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs.
This, too, is a condition that is conducive to amiability, that engenders feelings of endearment, engenders feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.

ā€œAnd further, the monk is set on mental acts of good will with regard to his companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs.
This, too, is a condition that is conducive to amiability, that engenders feelings of endearment, engenders feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.

(AFAIK) As far as I know, most translators consistently render metta with their chosen word everywhere in all the suttas.

So effectively (not their exact translation, just showing the key metta word translation)
Analayo has, ā€œa monk is set on bodily acts of benevolence towards his companionsā€¦ that engender ā€¦ respectā€¦ harmonyā€¦ā€
Anandajoti has, ā€œa monk is set on bodily acts of friendliness towards his companionsā€¦ that engender ā€¦ respectā€¦ harmonyā€¦ā€
Frankk has, ā€œa monk is set on bodily acts of friendly kindness towards his companionsā€¦ that engender ā€¦ respectā€¦ harmonyā€¦ā€
B. Bodhi has, ā€œa monk is set on bodily acts of loving kindness towards his companionsā€¦ that engender ā€¦ respectā€¦ harmonyā€¦ā€
Thanissaro has, ā€œa monk is set on bodily acts of good will towards his companionsā€¦ that engender ā€¦ respectā€¦ harmonyā€¦ā€

Of those 5 translations shown, 4 out of 5 are exactly how you would expect metta to work in a monastic community, how they use metta to behave towards one another.
Metta in the suttas and vinaya monastic rules, is platonic, friendly, neighborly, in no way implying romantic or sexual relations.
Bhikkhu Bodhiā€™s ā€œloving kindnessā€ sounds a little sketchy to me.
But he stands by it, he translates metta as ā€œloving kindnessā€ in all of those 12 suttas that way AFAIK.

Now letā€™s see what happens with Sujato and his metta = love

(again, not his exact translation, Iā€™m pointing out what would happen if he, like the other translators listed above, had confidence in their interpretation/translation of ā€˜mettaā€™ and used the same translation everywhere)
Sujato would have:
ā€œ...a monk is set on bodily acts of love towards his companionsā€¦ that engender ā€¦ respectā€¦ harmonyā€¦ā€
ā€œ...a monk is set on verbal acts of love towards his companionsā€¦ that engender ā€¦ respectā€¦ harmonyā€¦ā€
ā€œ...a monk is set on mental acts of love towards his companionsā€¦ that engender ā€¦ respectā€¦ harmonyā€¦ā€

4.5.2 ā€“ Karuį¹‡ÄšŸ‘šŸ˜Š: compassion

šŸ‘šŸ˜Š Karuį¹‡Ä-sahagatena cetasā
 šŸ‘šŸ˜Šwith a mind of compassion,
ekaį¹ƒ disaį¹ƒ pharitvā
 pervade [that mind state] in the direction [of the first quarter, without limit].
viharati,
 Live in this way.
tathā dutiyaį¹ƒ,
 likewise (the) second [quarter],
tathā tatiyaį¹ƒ,
 likewise (the) third [quarter],
tathā catutthaį¹ƒ;
 likewise (the) fourth [quarter],
iti uddham-adho
 Thus above,-below,
tiriyaį¹ƒ sabbadhi
 across, everywhere,
Sabbat-tatāya
 All-places,
sabbāvantaį¹ƒ lokaį¹ƒ
 (to the) entire world
šŸ‘šŸ˜Š Karuį¹‡Ä-sahagatena cetasā
 šŸ‘šŸ˜Šwith a mind of compassion,
vipulena maha-g-gatena
 vast, exalted,
appamāį¹‡ena a-verena
 unlimited, without-vengeful-animosity,
A-byāpajjena pharitvā
 without ill will, pervade [that mind state everywhere].
viharati,
 Live in this way.

ļ»æ
ļ»æ

Karuį¹‡Ä (2.šŸ‘šŸ˜Šļø ): compassion

karuį¹‡Ä (fem.) = compassion; sympathy; kindness (towards unfortunate beings); lit. action [āˆškar + uį¹‡Ä]

āœ… As one of the 4bvā˜®ļø , this attitude is unlimited, impartial, universal and applies to all beings without exception MN 21.
āœ… Karuį¹‡Ä should be done concurrently with sati , samādhi, 4 jhānas (4jšŸŒ• ), maintained at all times and all postures. AN 8.63 and A-byāpāda, A-vihiį¹ƒsā-saį¹…kappo of šŸ‘‘8ā˜ø ā†’ 2šŸ’­
āœ… Karuį¹‡Ä is an attitude, a wish for all beings (including oneself) to be free from suffering, a commitment to do no harm.
* An 'attitude' can be maintained at all times and all postures.
ā›” Karuį¹‡Ä is not a nanny devoting all their energy, time and attention watching unruly kids wreak havoc on the world.
ā›” Karuį¹‡Ä is not an obligation to support every living being in the universe until the age of 18 and pay for their college tuition.



4.5.3 ā€“ MuditāšŸ˜Š: Rejoicing in skillful Dharmas

šŸ˜Š muditā-sahagatena cetasā
 šŸ˜Š with a mind that rejoices in skillful Dharmas,
ekaį¹ƒ disaį¹ƒ pharitvā
 pervade [that mind state] in the direction [of the first quarter, without limit].
viharati,
 Live in this way.
tathā dutiyaį¹ƒ,
 likewise (the) second [quarter],
tathā tatiyaį¹ƒ,
 likewise (the) third [quarter],
tathā catutthaį¹ƒ;
 likewise (the) fourth [quarter],
iti uddham-adho
 Thus above,-below,
tiriyaį¹ƒ sabbadhi
 across, everywhere,
Sabbat-tatāya
 All-places,
sabbāvantaį¹ƒ lokaį¹ƒ
 (to the) entire world
šŸ˜Š muditā-sahagatena cetasā
 šŸ˜Š with a mind that rejoices in skillful Dharmas,
vipulena maha-g-gatena
 vast, exalted,
appamāį¹‡ena a-verena
 unlimited, without-vengeful-animosity,
A-byāpajjena pharitvā
 without ill will, pervade [that mind state everywhere].
viharati,
 Live in this way.

ļ»æ
ļ»æ

mudita : rejoicing in skillful Dharmas

āœ… one rejoices in virtuous, skillful Dharmas in oneself, in others, or both in oneself and others.
* virtuous skillful Dharma can be a bodily action, a verbal action, or mental action (if you're a mind reader you can rejoice in virtuous thoughts someone is thinking or about to think).
* The skillful Dharma can be from the past, present, or future.
* an action that deliberately avoids unskillful Dharmas, is also a skillful Dharma.
* the person one is observing performing virtuous Dharma is typically, but not necessarily experiencing joy. Example: someone does an action because "it's the right thing to do", but they feel pain instead of joy.
āœ… Mudita is nearly synonymous or the immediate precursor to pamojja and pÄ«ti in the seven awakening factors 4šŸ˜ , and pÄ«ti in the first two jhānas. (AN 5.26, AN 4.125 and AN 4.126)
āœ… Muditā can be done concurrently with sati , samādhi, 4 jhānas (4jšŸŒ• ), in any posture AN 8.63. Alternatively, one could enter jhāna samādhi directly without using pÄ«ti, mudita, and abide with or without sukha.
āœ… Mudita as a brahma-vihara 3.šŸ˜Š , in the Buddha's EBT , is in some ways more versatile than pre-Buddhist Mudita, but in other ways more restrictive to bring it into conformity with the Buddha's Dharma that leads to Nirvana instead of just good rebirth in Brahma realm. (see par for the Buddha )
ā›” Mudita is not an indiscriminate rejoicing at someone experiencing joy, especially if they are joyful from performing unskillful Dharmas.



4.5.4 ā€“ UpekkhāšŸ›†šŸ‘: equanimous-observation

šŸ›†šŸ‘ upekkhā-sahagatena cetasā
 šŸ›†šŸ‘ with a mind of equanimous-observation,
ekaį¹ƒ disaį¹ƒ pharitvā
 pervade [that mind state] in the direction [of the first quarter, without limit].
viharati,
 Live in this way.
tathā dutiyaį¹ƒ,
 likewise (the) second [quarter],
tathā tatiyaį¹ƒ,
 likewise (the) third [quarter],
tathā catutthaį¹ƒ;
 likewise (the) fourth [quarter],
iti uddham-adho
 Thus above,-below,
tiriyaį¹ƒ sabbadhi
 across, everywhere,
Sabbat-tatāya
 All-places,
sabbāvantaį¹ƒ lokaį¹ƒ
 (to the) entire world
šŸ›†šŸ‘ upekkhā-sahagatena cetasā
 šŸ›†šŸ‘ with a mind of equanimous-observation,
vipulena maha-g-gatena
 vast, exalted,
appamāį¹‡ena a-verena
 unlimited, without-vengeful-animosity,
A-byāpajjena pharitvā
 without ill will, pervade [that mind state everywhere].
viharati,
 Live in this way.

ļ»æ
ļ»æ

Upekkhā (4.šŸ›†šŸ‘ļø ): Equanimous-observation

Upekkhā (fem.) = looking on; mental poise; mental balance; equanimity; non-reactivity; composure [upa + āˆšikkh + ā]
āœ… As one of the 4bvā˜®ļø , this attitude is unlimited, impartial, universal and applies to all beings without exception MN 21.
āœ… Upekkhā should be done concurrently with sati , samādhi, 4 jhānas (4jšŸŒ• ), maintained at all times and all postures. AN 8.63 and A-byāpāda, A-vihiį¹ƒsā-saį¹…kappo of šŸ‘‘8ā˜ø ā†’ 2šŸ’­
āœ… Upekkhā is equivalent or nearly identical in the many sets of Dharmas it appears in, as part of 4bvā˜®ļø , 3rd and 4th jhāna, as part of 7sb awakening factors, 5abi, etc. See details in 7šŸ›†šŸ‘ .
ā›” Upekkhā is not indifference to others' suffering.
ā›” Upekkhā is not temporary indifference/boredom to sensual pleasures, with underlying passion still latent and just waiting to emerge later when one gets hungry or lustful again. MN 137.



4.5.5 ā€“ 4bvā˜®ļø misc.

10 -

10.1 ā€“ sutta analysis

10.1.1 ā€“ AN

10.1.2 ā€“ DN

10.1.3 ā€“ KN

10.1.4 ā€“ MN

10.1.4...19.1 ā€“ MN 19 What would happen to the cowherd following Ajahn Brahm's redefinition of jhāna?

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2022/10/mn-19-what-would-happen-to-cowherd.html

The Buddha's similes are often remarkably apt.
Besides giving us very rich detail about what those states may feel like experientially,
the similes often tells us what those states are NOT.

For example, if you have a wrong definition and understanding of sati, "mindfulness",
the simile will make the error very clear.

In AN 7.67, "mindfulness" is the wise gatekeeper that allows friends to enter the fortress and enemies removed.

If "mindfulness" was a non judgmental, choiceless awareness gatekeeper who only observed without reacting, he would just let anyone waltz through the gate.
That is not a wise gate keeper.
So clearly that can not be a correct definition of "mindfulness" (sati).

Similarly, MN 19 gives us a great first jhāna simile, of a cowherd monitoring a herd of cows.

Prior to first jhāna, the cowherd is kept busy, poking the cows, keeping them in the proper areas and keeping them from wandering into forbidden areas.

This represents right effort restraining actions and pulling them in line with right view and right resolves.

When right resolves are qualified for first jhāna, the Buddha then describes the cowherd with this simile:

(simile of cowherd relaxed in jhāna)

seyyathāpi, bhikkhave,
 ā€œJust as (in the)
gimhānaį¹ƒ pacchime māse
 hot-season, (in the) last month,
sabba-sassesu gāmanta-sambhatesu
 (when) all-crops (into the) village-(they've been)-stored-up,
gopālako gāvo rakkheyya,
 a cowherd {would look after} (his) cows:
tassa rukkha-mūla-gatassa vā
 While resting under the shade of a tree or
abbhokāsa-gatassa vā
 out in the open,
šŸ˜ sati-karaį¹‡Ä«yam-eva hoti ā€” ā€˜etā VAR gāvoā€™ti.
 šŸ˜ he simply keeps himself remembering ā€˜those cows.ā€™
evamevaį¹ƒ kho, bhikkhave,
 In the same way,
šŸ˜ sati-karaį¹‡Ä«yam-eva ahosi ā€” ā€˜ete dhammāā€™ti.
 šŸ˜ I simply kept myself remembering ā€˜those Dhammas.ā€™

(code phrase for successful entry into 4 jhānas)

ā€œÄraddhaį¹ƒ kho pana me, bhikkhave,
 ā€œaroused indeed in me, monks
(7sb ā†’ 3. šŸ¹) vÄ«riyaį¹ƒ ahosi a-sallÄ«naį¹ƒ,
(7sb ā†’ 3. šŸ¹), vigor was un-flagging,
(7sb ā†’ 1. šŸ˜) upaį¹­į¹­hitā sati a-sam-muį¹­į¹­hā,
(7sb ā†’ 1. šŸ˜) established remembering [of which ā˜øDhamma to do], not-forgetful,
(7sb ā†’ 5. šŸŒŠ) passaddho kāyo a-sāraddho,
(7sb ā†’ 5. šŸŒŠ) Pacified body, un-aroused,
(7sb ā†’ 6. šŸŒ„) samāhitaį¹ƒ cittaį¹ƒ ekā€™aggaį¹ƒ.
(7sb ā†’ 6. šŸŒ„) Undistractability-and-lucidity (of) mind (with) singular-preoccupation.

(STED 4 jhānas)

šŸš«šŸ’‘ viviccā€™eva kāmehi
 Judiciously-secluded from desire for five cords of sensual pleasures,
šŸš«šŸ˜  vivicca a-kusalehi dhammehi
 Judiciously-secluded from unskillful ā˜øDharmas,
(V&VšŸ’­) sa-vitakkaį¹ƒ sa-vicāraį¹ƒ
 with directed-thought and evaluation [of those verbal ā˜øDharma thoughts],
šŸ˜šŸ™‚ viveka-jaį¹ƒ pÄ«ti-sukhaį¹ƒ
 with [mental] rapture and [physical] pleasure born from judicious-seclusion,
šŸŒ˜ paį¹­hamaį¹ƒ jhānaį¹ƒ upasampajja viharati.
 he attains and lives in first jhāna.

ā€¦ 4th jhānaā€¦

That state involving the 7sbā˜€ļø awakening factors immediately before first jhāna, is describing what's occuring WHILE one is in first jhāna.
MN 125 makes this even more explicit by removing the standard first jhāna formula, and adding a second passage on satipaį¹­į¹­hāna.

The cowherd lucidly discerning "those cows" is also describing first jhāna.

Now letā€™s pretend Ajahn Brahm's redefinition of jhāna was the same as the Buddha's jhāna

What would the cowherd be doing?

He'd be resting under the shade of the tree, thinking:
"those cows" (vitakka), referring to the cows serenely chewing on grass and not wandering around.

But according to Brahm that can't be vitakka (verbal thinking) of first jhāna, since one can not "think" in first jhāna

That's just access concentration (a concept the Buddha never uses).
Then the cowherd, with the pīti and sukha (physical and mental pleasure) of access concentration,
notices the cow kasina counterpart image arise (the Buddha never talked about jhāna with kasinas),
or alternatively, the beautiful breath nimitta, a visual bright white vision .

As the white luminosity gets brighter and bigger, the cowherd absorbs into the nimitta, being completely absorbed in mental bliss.
The body senses are shut off, the cowherd can't see, can't hear, can't think.
The cowherd could be here in a disembodied frozen state of bliss for hours on end until the cows come home, and the cowherd wouldn't know it.
He's just frozen in bliss.

(remember, we're hypothetically assuming Ajahn Brahm's redefinition of jhāna is genuine Buddha's jhāna)

To indicate this is genuine jhāna, the Buddha in the jhāna standard formula helpfully redefines the terms 'body' as "body of mind only factors excluding the body', and vitakka, which means verbal thinking everywhere else in the hundreds of occurrences in the suttas, yet in jhāna, vitakka inexplicably means 'not able to think, mind is frozen in place.'

Does that seem likely to you?
That the Buddha would be consistent with the use of 'body' and 'thinking' in every single place in the suttas with a body satipaį¹­į¹­hāna context,
but just in the four jhānas, he would redefine 'body' as 'not body', and 'thinking' as 'not thinking'?

Does that seem likely to you?
And he would do this secret redefinition without telling you about it?

The revelation of the Buddha's secret redefinition would require the external assistance of specially appointed prophets that come 500 years and 2500 years after the Buddha died, to explain those terms (V&VšŸ’­ ) vitakka and kāya which have a mysterious counter intuititve redefinition?

Let's check in on those cows and the cowherd

Earlier, with the cowherd in the disembodied frozen bliss of Ajahn Brahm's "jhāna", the cows peacefully went home.
But we need to stress test this simile and examine realistic possibilites.

Maybe the cows don't notice the cowherd is frozen, for 20 minutes, 60 minutes.
But after that, they've grazed the area clean, and need to eat some more.
You ever wonder how vegan, herbivore animals get so massive?
Cows have four stomachs.
Giraffes graze for 12 hours a day.

These cows are still hungry.
One of the cows, Bessy, goes right up to the cowherd, nudges him, gets no reaction, nudges him again and still gets now reaction.

So Bessy thinks to herself and lucidly discerns (using vitakka, vicāra, sati and sampajāno),
if that cowherd can't move, he can't use that stick to hit us when we go graze wherever we want.

So Bessy moos to the other cows letting them know it's safe to go graze wherever they want without repercussion.

The cows go to town, eating and crapping wherever they want, trampling all over king's prized rose garden in his private pleasure garden.
The cowherd has an unpleasant surprise waiting for him when he emerges from Ajahn Brahm's "jhāna":

(simile of cowherd busy)

seyyathāpi, bhikkhave,
 ā€œJust as,
vassānaį¹ƒ pacchime māse
 (in) the-rains-period, following (the) last-month,
saradasamaye kiį¹­į¹­ha-sambādhe
 (in the) autumn-season, when the crops are ripening,
gopālako gāvo rakkheyya.
 (a) cowherd, (his) cows (he) would look after:
so tā gāvo tato tato daį¹‡įøena
 on this side & that (with his) stick,
ākoį¹­eyya paį¹­ikoį¹­eyya sannirundheyya sannivāreyya.
 (he would) tap & poke & check & curb them.
taį¹ƒ kissa hetu?
 Why is that?
passati hi so, bhikkhave,
 Because he foresees
gopālako tato-nidānaį¹ƒ
 (the) cowherd (on) account-of [letting cows run amuck]
vadhaį¹ƒ vā bandhanaį¹ƒ vā
 flogging or imprisonment or
jāniį¹ƒ vā garahaį¹ƒ vā.
 a fine or public censure.
(end of MN 19 analysis of Ajahn Brahmā€™s cowherdā¹ļø)

10.1.5 ā€“ SN

24 ā€“ jhāna all the time 24/7, all 4 postures

24.1 ā€“ 4 JhānasšŸŒ• ā‰ˆ 4 Satipaį¹­į¹­hānašŸ˜

4 JhānasšŸŒ• ā‰ˆ 4 Satipaį¹­į¹­hānašŸ˜

24.2 ā€“ jhāna all the time 24/7

always should be in samādhi & jhāna in all postures 24/7: or at least strive to be

24.3 ā€“ Jhāna in all 4 postures

šŸš¶ Walking meditation, samādhi & jhāna in all postures: Also see noble silence šŸ‘‘šŸ˜¶

24.4 ā€“You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas

hearing in jhānašŸ‘‚šŸŒ„ : You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas. Which samādhis are silent?
ļ»æ

hearing in jhānašŸ‘‚šŸŒ„ , samādhi

āœ… You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas, including 'imperturbable' version of 4th jhāna (j4šŸŒ• āneƱjaāš”). First three jhāna are 'perturbable' MN 66.
āœ… You can not hear sounds in imperturbable formless (a-rÅ«pa) attainments.
   * Unqualified 'āneƱja ' (imperturbable) is usually referring to these formless attainment's, and not 4th jhāna.
   * These formless states are the 'santi vihara' peaceful meditations referred to in DN 16 where Buddha and his teacher can not hear sounds.
ā›” Tv Ab Kv 18.8 claims that one can not hear sounds in the four jhānas. First of all, this text is relatively new and not everyone agrees it's canonical. Second, they use fallacious and circular reasoning.


ļ»æYou can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas. Which samādhis are silent?
Answer: MN 43 and AN 9.37 make it absolutely clear, by not listing 4 jhanas, itā€™s only in the formless attainments where one is percipient and conscious and awake, but can not hear sounds, feel touch of body, etc. with 5 sense doors.

There are two types of imperturbable (anenja) samadhi

1. the purified and luminous 4th jhana that can easily access the 6 higher knowledges, as described in MN 125 war elephant simile, AN 5.113 and AN 5.139, AN 6.56 with Sona.
2. formless attainments (as mentioned above, MN 43 and AN 9.37)
so when KN Ud 3.3 states that 500 monks and buddha in imperturbable samadhi canā€™t hear, we know it must be talking about formless states, not imperturbable 4th jhana.
when DN 16 mentions Buddh, while awake, percipient, conscious, not hearing in thunderstorm, and Alara not hearing 500 carts, their unamed samadhi must therefore be the imperturbable formless attainments, not the 4th jhana.
the imperturbable samadhi of Moggallana in the Vinaya passage must be the formless states, not 4th jhana for the same reason.
AN 10.72 deliberately omitting the 4 formless attainments, and listing 4 jhanas (plural), means sound acts as thorns in all jhanas, but not in the formless samadhi.
In DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ā€˜samadhiā€™, we know that unspecified samadhi must therefore be 4 jhanas, or animitta samadhi. In several suttas, the buddha has stated whenever heā€™s not giving a dhamma talk, his mind is in suƱƱata or samadhi. SuƱƱata includes all 9 attainments and also animitta samadhi. Since heā€™s walking around, heā€™s not in a formless samadhi, and so most likely heā€™s in imperturbable 4th jhana by default.

'Santa Vihara', Peaceful dwellings, are formless attainments, not 4 jhānas

Besides the imperturbable formless samādhi where one can not hear sounds, the another term that is used is 'Santa Vihara', Peaceful dwellings.
In DN 16 when Buddha and his Teacher can not hear sounds, they are in Santa Vihara.
As MN 8 very clearly delineates, the four jhānas are 'pleasant dwellings', as opposed to the 4 formless attainments which are 'peaceful dwellings.'

Conclusion: you can hear sounds in the 4 jhanas, loud sounds are thorns

When you consider all the sutta passages in this article, the evidence is overwhelming and incontrovertible. There is no controversy, and people should do their homework and clear it up for themselves. Itā€™s not that hard. All the evidence is laid out for you here, you just need to commit a couple of hours to careful study.

šŸ”¬ detailed analysis: See hearing in jhānašŸ‘‚šŸŒ„

24.5 ā€“ learner's jhāna, impure jhāna, is still called "jhāna":

learner's jhāna, impure jhāna, is still called "jhāna":

100 ā€“ commentary

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